Live data from Hacker News

The Decline and Fall of the English Major

nytimes.com

141–150 of 160 posts

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that maybe you missed pjbrunet's point.

"At the time, if anyone had asked me "what are you going to 'do' with that? what about the economics?" (and I know this, because they did), I would have said that economics aren't everything. Are they?" While I was in art school, I can't count the number of times I heard the phrase: "Would you like fries with that?" #2 was always something about underwater basketweaving. I guess the humor/affirmation didn't translate…

Haha, oh goodness. It seems an apology is actually due. Sorry, pjbrunet-- I thought your remark quite mean-spirited on the first go. But I'm delighted to know my interpretation was incorrect!

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#142
post #51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Tourists in museums are generally bored by the classical/baroque/renaissance art section and entertained by the weird stuff in the contemporary section. If their jaws are agape it's because they are falling asleep, or because they weren't expecting the Mona Lisa to be so small.

And yet the classical/baroque/renaissance art museums are packed to the gills full of tourists who just sqeaked in after a 3 hour wait in line, while the modern art museums, while not empty, are certainly not trying to fend off the crowds. Nothing can prepare you for the press of people even in the off-season clamoring to get into the Uffizi -- who's main claims to fame are: 1) being the main museum in Florence 2) a…

allegorical counterexample, but here in New York my impression is that the biggest crush of tourists trying to get into a museum is the one at MoMA. This may have something to do with size; the other most popular museum is clearly the Met, which is so huge that it's rare, even in NY, to have it be truly jam packed.

Someone else already said it, but I do believe that that the biggest reason for the difference in quality between old art and new art is that old art has had the benefit of the filter of history; for the most part, the bad stuff got thrown out and good stuff survived. In geek's terms, you might say that the old stuff that remains is sturgeon's 10%, but that 90% of the new stuff is, in fact, crud.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, I missed it too. Maybe something to do with the economic use of a personal epiphany? Either way I appreciate your response, and your openness to be wrong.

> Would you like fries with that? This was a snide remark about education as emotional entertainment, a bourgeois pleasure if there ever was one. Alternatively, it was about some claim that English majors are likely to be employed at fast food establishments. Alternatively alternatively, it was about the fast food nature of the life experience gained in an English course. Any other interpretations?

How about, you can make fun of religion while working at mcdonalds, get yelled at for it, and improve your life and outlook. From a systems analysis perspective for that one small task its a more efficient vehicle/tool than education. It is a pretty simple and straightforward lesson that doesn't need to be needlessly complicated.

I can get insights from literature... and other things. I can also DO other things. Lit as the only source of insight is inaccurate, misleading, and inefficient. Don't confuse this with the logical opposite and assume I'm saying there's no insight in lit... I love to read, especially the "good stuff". I just acknowledge there's a whole world out there.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#144
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

[deleted]

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#145
post #126

The article gets it completely wrong. One studies writing as an English major the way one studies programming as a computer science major. That is, the best way to do it is to inspire via other subjects that will enliven the entire career. I'm a highly skilled software engineer who was an English and Classics major at at top liberal arts college. The author of the article seems to be an authority, but he is not. Most…

>Science, by comparison, is young.

The age of literature makes it static; there is no hurry to participate. I can pursue literature leisurely (and with very little financial investment) over the course of my lifetime. Science, on the other hand, is more dynamic; if you want to contribute to the cutting edge you will likely need credentials to access the resources to do so. A degree in the sciences opens doors in ways that the humanities do not: the great works of literature are available to anyone at my local library, but only a very small group of experts gets to test their theories on the Large Hadron Collider. Studying the humanities in college therefore has a significant opportunity cost, to say nothing of the cost of tuition.

Computer science is a prominent exception, though. There is much more acceptance in that discipline for self-taught experts.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#146
post #115

The necessity of studying one's own language is the problem. Most of what is read in English should have been read before college begins. And what's left? There is no language to master as there is with a French or Classics major, save some specialty work in old/middle English. The interesting linguistics are covered by that field. Education majors cover the pedagogical aspects just fine. So, the only thing that can…

I read more books before I started college than most of my liberal arts college graduated friends have read in their entire lives. Some of them still haven't read Orwell.

Though even though I am a dyslexic I recall in my classical studies class I was the only one who read all of Thucydides as well as several extra plays by Euripides and Xenophon "the march up country"

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#147
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great point about the economic realities of pursuing a degree in english, and even worse-so a graduate or PhD. My takeaway from the piece, however, was that teaching the ability to communicate (writing), is in decline. Both universities and students have devalued the value of learning to write, as it's payoffs are not as great as other majors (though, political science and economics aren't exactly a guaran…

> My takeaway from the piece, however, was that teaching the ability to communicate (writing), is in decline. Isn't it another case of us idealizing the past? Like the "declinie of morality/society" which actually is like it always has been? I used to think that writing and reading skills are maybe really in decline, right until I saw this xkcd: http://xkcd.com/1227/ As for today I don't know really of any social dec…

That xkcd post also allows for the condition of perpetual decline. That life has become faster paced and less open to concentration on production of communications and artistic works continuously over centuries.

I think there's probably a strong case to be made for that within some strata of society.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#148
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first impulse at this was to slam my fists on my keyboard and howl with rage. Since that's totally unproductive and not an appropriate response to a sophisticated argument such as yours, I'll abstain. I'd also like to acknowledge that at the end of my remarks, we're unlikely to agree fully. But I'm hoping I can demonstrate my perception of these phenomenon that you specify, my perception of your perception, and in…

> Post script, you can like pop and Bach at the same time and there's precisely nothing wrong with that. THIS. And let me add Bach is (was) the dance music of yesteryears (follow the 3/4). (Mozart was probably rock) The thing with "modern music is crap" has one factor helping it, we never got to hear Bach's time crap music. (Note: the above is my opinion based on my shallow knowledge of music)

> "Bach is (was) the dance music of yesteryears (follow the 3/4). (Mozart was probably rock)"

Not so much. Bach and Mozart were employed by quite wealthy individuals to compose and perform pieces for nobility and aristocracy. The only way the proletariat population would have heard their work would have been in a church-setting of some sort, probably performed by someone with very little skill or training.

>"we never got to hear Bach's time crap music"

More than you might imagine, actually. While folk songs were rarely written down in any sort of musical-notation there were (and doubtlessly still are) scholars who worked tirelessly at uncovering these old works as best they could and those were the real 'dance music' of the era. Songs written on the same 4-chord pattern we use this very day and age. Songs about love, loss, friends, family, etc. Typically upbeat and always set to a beat that you could sway your hips to. Instrumentation would have been based on either a piano, flute, or that century's particular flavor of stringed instrument.

It's been a good while since I studied this subject, I'll see if I can dig up a source for this info tonight.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#149
post #3

It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within. Because carrying on the traditions of arts and letters was no longer considered valuable, the disciplines rushed to gut themselves in favor of far shallower and dodgier stuff, like political ideologies ("the only things that matter are race, class, and gender") and pseudo-technical gibberish. None of that has…

> Meanwhile there is a smugness that goes along with purely technical training, a certainty that its way is the only valuable way, that calls itself education but whose true name is Philistinism, and I feel sad that that mentality is taking over our society completely.

I'm gonna risk it and sound very smug here, but I hear this a lot from non-technical folks and I completely disagree.

First of all, I'm yet to meet a STEM-educated person, who thinks that this "way is the only valuable way". Moreover, I'm convinced that this whole dichotomy is wrong. There are no different ways. It would be like saying that there is a way of writing on clay tablets using wooden picks vs. using paper and ballpen, and the paper-and-pen people are philistines. There's a reason we're doing the latter instead of the former - this is objectively better tech. Ditto for thinking. Maths is essentially distilled, formalized rational thinking.

Sure art and literature are valuable, we can learn a lot from them about humanity and we can experience a great deal of emotion (which is an important part of our lives). But don't for a second think you can feel the matter into subjection or dream your way to the Moon.

I know a few people who say things like "programmers think in binary code, and they fail because world is not black and white". But it is them who think black and white. The math you (are supposed to) learn on a technical training track actually gives you necessary framework to reason about uncertainty and fuzziness; I'd say programmers and engineers are better equipped to reason about the world correctly - because getting the right answers is the part of their training and jobs. The point is, technical training gives you (or is supposed to give) the precision of thinking, lack of which is - in my opinion - one of the reasons mainstream philosophy is so mostly useless pandering nowdays.

One does not have to choose either-or between arts and sciences. Just don't pretend you can reason about the world correctly without the latter, because the sciences is what humanity created to understand the world.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#150
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

You extrapolate from your own experience to "the English major" to "the humanities".

Studying a language (with its multiple aspects, i.e. culture, literature, linguistics) opens up a variety of uses, from a cultural planning and administration perspective, a way into publishing, academia, teaching, consulting etc.

If you think all of the humanities is bullshitting your way through by espousing hollow phrases about "the bourgeoisie's consumerism", then you, frankly have not gotten the point. The interesting thing isn't "what the author believes" or even "what the author meant". This already shows the fundamental limitedness of the insights gained, which are the insights of "having taken a course in literature as an undergrad once".

> "After you've mastered the pseudointellectual bemused sneer"

Maybe this is just me being pseudointellectually bemused and sneering, however, I think we should probably think more about the bourgeois consumerism and might even come to the point where we can make the leap from "once upon a time an author wrote..." to our own life and our own time and society.

Your use of anecdote is certainly well chosen for HN and will resonate with the "innovating crowd" here, most of which do not see that there is a difference in approach and method between "appreciating a book" and studying it. At the very least since the 70s (and arguably earlier, depending on place and orientation), a study of literature or language is a study of a culture. There is a good reason why many of the more eminent philosophers that are still regarded as meaningful today dedicated so much time to literature, music or the arts. Literature lets us gain a deeper understanding of the social forces at a given time, prevalent and deviant opinions, habits, everyday life and social experience.

What you know as English class is a class in close reading, which bears little resemblance to research and the knowledge gained.

I am well aware that this is going to be unpopular here, especially given your position. Yet I find it slightly worrying how HN brings together the arrogance of engineering with a wider disregard not just for the academy (which is fine), but cultivates a particular form of anti-intellectualism that is all to prevalent in the US (and also elsewhere, though the US seem to particularly stand out). At least I would like to voice my dissenting opinion and try to convey that things might not be quite so simple.

Post reply on HN