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Sucks to be an old engineer

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Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#141

Post by geebee »

frostmatthew wrote: post #13

I've never understood why for many professions age/experience is coveted but engineers are assumed to have such a short shelf life. Nobody prefers a 30 year old lawyer or doctor over a more experienced one but an engineer of the same age needs to start planning a career transition...where is the logic in this?

On thing to consider is that doctors and lawyers are members of professional associations that resemble cartels in many ways.

It could be that the powerful elder members of these groups ensure that their professions don't evolve in a way that would overly favor young people.

For instance, suppose that software engineers were required to hold S.D's (software doctorates, a three year professional doctoral degree that limits enrollment overall to ensure scarcity and severely limit the enrollment of international students). To get this this SJ, you are required to implement things in enterprise java, with massive amounts of complexity, in a way that is difficult to change. Also, scope is broad - making very minor changes to html code is ok for a para-software, but only under the supervision of a licensed member of the Software Bar. Anything involving "programming logic" counts as practicing software, and if you are not a member of the ASA and you do this, you can be imprisoned. In addition, suppose this group used influence over congress to place heavy and database requirements on the business world - in short, forcing them to spend a great deal of money on licensed members of the "American Software Association".

I suspect that under these circumstances, software wouldn't evolve quickly at all.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#142

Post by michaelochurch »

greenyoda wrote: post #137
michaelochurch wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father stayed an engineer when most of his peers became managers; many of them became unhappy over time, and quite a few died from heart attacks before reaching 60. Yeah, I realized that I disliked management (the concept) when I realized that managing is, in most cases, just as bad as being managed.

And unless you're the CEO, being a manager is both managing and being managed at the same time.

Right. The corporate system seems to be designed to make almost everyone miserable so the people at the bottom want the jobs above them. The problem is that it leads to pernicious and destructive internal competition, not excellence.

My philosophy: mentoring, coordination, and very occasional police work (against internal harassment and bad behavior) are the only valuable contributions of management. The rest of it is useless and should go away. It's outdated.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#143

Post by aswanson »

SiVal wrote: post #134
samfisher83 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an industry like O&G or energy experience is highly valued. When you have you have potentially billions of dollars on the line and many peoples lives with an oil platform you want someone who has done it before. In tech you are trying to make something no one has done before so you want the young hungry engineer.

I worked for a well-known software company (everyone here has used their software, I would guess), and they had this, "we're doing cutting edge stuff and need young, hungry engineers" notion in spades. At one point, a VP announced to me that they were going to build a certain software project and the CEO had decreed that it would be done in 90 days. I, an "older engineer", chuckled. I assumed that she was complaining…

Young, hungry engineers and ceo on ship day, surrounding a keg in celebration: "We have made fire!"

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#144

Post by WalterBright »

taude wrote: post #136
WalterBright wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it an example of ageism if someone who is 45 can't find a job when what they know is Ada, Cobol and Forth? Um, I'm 54 and the languages of my 20's were C, C++, etc. I also fairly regularly get calls from recruiters. > So yes, you either need to find a job that doesn't change (eg a plumber or a teacher) or you need to constantly battle to maintain relevancy in a fast-changing industry or you need to become master…

The people capable of "Or, you can be a driver of this change yourself by developing a modern, advanced programming language." is probably farer and fewer between. How many are capable and how many advanced programming languages are needed?

There are plenty of other things you can do to drive the state of the art forward. I personally chose to develop a modern, advanced programming language.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#145

Post by redschell »

The blog's author, later in the comments section, doing a great impersonation of my mother (sans the anti-immigrant bit):

All of the smartest Americans are going into more lucrative fields like finance, medicine, and law. As much as you think the creme-of-the-crop engineers are getting paid, they aren’t making as much as investment bankers, and even the best computer programmers don’t make as much money as an average surgeon.

The market is flooded with mediocre Indians willing to work cheap, and that’s what every IT department wants, cheap labor.

It amazes me that people can still say things like this in post-crisis America. As if finance, which is still reeling, isn't already flooded with Indians and Asians with tech backgrounds, as if they aren't in law (horrifying debt, anemic job market) and medicine (even more horrifying debt, massive commitment) as well.

Hell, I wonder if the quote here, supposedly from the WSJ comments section, is even real, or if he's just looking to rile people up.

Ageism in engineering, especially software engineering, is a real issue worthy of vigorous debate, but I'd like to think there are better pieces we can argue around than this dubious anecdote.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#146

Post by MetaCosm »

zerr wrote: post #59
MetaCosm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the sharpest developers I have ever worked with -- was 63. He did only mobile development and only would agree to work 30 hours a week. When I pressed him on it, he explained that he liked to constantly be working on both Android and iOS projects, 30 hours a week each, and that kept his backlog of waiting clients happy. EDIT: He completed the iOS application under budget with wonderful tests.

I really wonder at what rates one might work at these ages.

He was relatively expensive, $180 an hour. But his estimate was about 40% duration versus other ones, and he delivered quicker than expected. Probably closer to 35%.

So, while a lot of the bids we got were at $85, him working at $180 for 35% of the hours was still cheaper (by a good bit) -- and we got a rock solid result.

Rates are meaningless until multiplied by hours.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#147

Post by MetaCosm »

jarek wrote: post #94
ihsw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that age the rates are irrelevant compared to the health insurance compensation. Most people at that age would be willing to take a pay cut in exchange for generous health benefits and flexible hours.

I must have missed the part where MetaCosm stated his developer was buying health insurance in an age-discriminating market.

He was in the US (Arizona if I remember correctly), and had been incorporated for a number of years... but I have no idea about his health care situation... the joy of contractors, I don't have to care. I give him $180 an hour for X hours, he gives me a wonderful product, everyone goes home happy.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#148

Post by vonmoltke »

michaelochurch wrote: post #118

I see our age discrimination problem as the fundamental sign of us being a defeated tribe. Ageism is one of those horrible traits of management culture (i.e. if you have a younger boss, you're a loser) that we wouldn't face if we had kept our tribal integrity (because "bosses" would be coordinators and mentors, not hierarchical superiors, making age irrelevant.) Good programmers aren't ageist. We look up to the gray-…

> Meanwhile, the work that could actually use our talents is hard to find, because our society is in such a depraved state that social media gets VC-megabucks but cancer research gets peanuts.

Not only that, but social media will hire the college dropout with an impressive Github portfolio while the cancer research institute will shitcan any resume that doesn't have an MS or PhD on it.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#149

Post by WalterBright »

vowelless wrote: post #139
WalterBright wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it an example of ageism if someone who is 45 can't find a job when what they know is Ada, Cobol and Forth? Um, I'm 54 and the languages of my 20's were C, C++, etc. I also fairly regularly get calls from recruiters. > So yes, you either need to find a job that doesn't change (eg a plumber or a teacher) or you need to constantly battle to maintain relevancy in a fast-changing industry or you need to become master…

> I also fairly regularly get calls from recruiters. Not everyone has a wikipedia article :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bright

That brings up a relevant issue. I realized a long time ago that developing an professional online persona is worthwhile. To that end, I recommend regularly to people:

1. create a website from your own name, like walterbright.com, and put your professional work there

2. create a github account under your own name, and contribute to significant projects using it

3. ditto for stackoverflow, hackernews, gamedev.net and other relevant forums

4. write interesting and useful tech articles under your own name

I.e. your name is your brand, make use of it. If you use a pseudonym and hide your contact info or otherwise put up barriers to being contacted, you'll lose opportunities.

Aside from that, one the best ways to get recruited is to show up at tech conferences and engage with the other participants. A lot of companies use tech conferences as ways to find good engineers.

If you're broke and can't afford to go to a tech conference, submit papers to them and try to do a presentation - speakers usually get expenses paid.

Re: Sucks to be an old engineer

#150

Post by MetaCosm »

jholman wrote: post #90
cpeterso wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Google still care about people's undergraduate GPAs from 25 years ago? When my friend interviewed at Google (they did hire him), the recruiter wanted to know how many hours per week he worked (to pay his tuition) at university 25 years ago to account for his "low" undergraduate GPA (3.0 - 3.5).

Google doesn't care about GPAs from 25 years ago. 1) No one cares what the recruiters think. If you mean interviewer that might be different. 2) My GPA was worse than that, and it was only 5 years after the fact, when Google totally-ignored-my-GPA. Anecdote stalemate.

... I am stealing that phrase, it is awesome. "Anecdote stalemate."

... I might add ", bitch!"

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