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Just Use Sublime Text

delvarworld.github.com

141–150 of 296 posts

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#141
post #21

I think the OP has never seen a very efficient VIM user crack some code. There are some valid points but they are surrounded by unnecessary ranting and lack of knowledge. >> Don’t you ever think you can beat a mouse. Only in very few edge cases will it even matter. Already saw someone clicking the "Search" button on a google page instead of pressing Enter? This is the same sensation I get when I see someone editing c…

Yeah, he had some odd examples. If you can't type "/word" faster than someone can move their hand to the mouse, target the word, and click it, then you can't touchtype. That was a strange example of his.

But nevertheless, I would happily take up his challenge: let's find a word that is in the document, but not currently on-screen - hardly an 'edge case', more like 'routine task'. Good luck at winning that one, mouseketeer!

Another great one that sees regular use at my fingers is ci' or ci" - again, hardly an edge case, and blazingly faster than selecting the characters just right with the mouse.

I have no problem with using the mouse for certain things, but blanket statements like the quoted one are rarely anything but wrong.

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#142
> For the first 1-2 years of your Vim usage you will be much less efficient than your current editor.

I stopped to read right there. I was equally productive after two weeks and more productive after a month.

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#143
Almost anybody who associates great programming with things like super keyboarding skills and muscle memory is unfortunately degrading the status of programming to mere typing.

What is it that is so distracting and pulling you out of your zen when you use a mouse? Seriously you type so fast and code at the speed of thought that a little glitch here is like making a mistake with a Formula 1 car in the Monaco Grand Prix?

Let me tell you how real work happens and how productive people work. I am currently working with a very senior electronics guy in the night for some side projects. Watching him work shows me the path on how we programmers should be working. He will first build the base PCB with all his reusable designs and additional ones reading the documentation I rarely saw him Google anything in the past 15 days. If he has to ever get down to googling its generally to find some data sheet. Once that is done, he gets the components and meticulously builds the entire circuit on the PCB module by module. Every time he builds the module he tests if the inputs and outputs to it are as he designed on the PCB. It took a well whole month with each sitting spanning hours to get the whole PCB working. When he was done, the entire PCB worked like magic. The manufactured one's too. And there wasn't a single problem/bug. It was so spotlessly done. It looked like art work.

Yet the pace at which he solders, or used the CRO or multimeter hardly matters or is even relevant.

And yes, he hardly rushes or goes in a rash break neck speed in doing anything. So here is what I learned. Firstly learn to define the problem correctly, break the problem and establish a clear understanding of inputs and outputs to each module. Read documentation get a clear idea as to what it is done. Spend long hours trying to build/test each module. If possible automate testing(if its software). Spend time integrating.

Go slow, the biggest productivity leaks are not in going slow. Go slow but go steady. The biggest productivity problems are in problem definition, solution clarity, distraction and procrastination. For us programmers, let us be frank. Most of us don't RTFM. We jump to googling and then go down the time sink and end up reading all sorts of articles achieving nothing at the end of the day.

If possible work things out on the paper. Do use stuff like Mind Map for test cases. Learn to work things on the paper and by reading documentation. Learn good debugging tools, sound programming practices etc.

That is what counts guys. Not optimizing the 1 second delay needed to reach the mouse. That's not even relevant in the broad spectrum of things.

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it impossible to get anything bang on the first time around. I find that even the best plans and ideas can start to show problems once you get into the guts of the implementation. Being able to input and edit things quickly greatly reduces the friction involved in doing refactorings. If I can do it fast enough, why not just refactor 3 different ways and see which one makes the most sense? Also helps with proto…

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I also can't tell if you are disagreeing with anything I wrote in my comment either.

Not sure, just pointing out that I think that writing and editing code faster has more benefits than you might suggest :)

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#145

See, I have tried so many times to use and love VIM, but I can't. I feel its a monstrosity. I find "nano" 1000000x better for quick editing on a server. Most servers I have worked with, have it. I only use vi/vim if i REALLY REALLY have to. Hell, I even did VIM Adventures. I like a lot of the hotkeys and shortcuts for stuff, but its weird. I am much happier and productive in IntelliJ and Sublime. and if I do somethin…

You are never in both modes. In another editor, as soon as you press Ctrl, you have flipped the mode. 'command' mode is a bit like having a 'ctrl-lock' key.

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#146
post #143

Almost anybody who associates great programming with things like super keyboarding skills and muscle memory is unfortunately degrading the status of programming to mere typing. What is it that is so distracting and pulling you out of your zen when you use a mouse? Seriously you type so fast and code at the speed of thought that a little glitch here is like making a mistake with a Formula 1 car in the Monaco Grand Pri…

That's all true, but I find when the heavens open and the True Path to implementation shines down upon me, being able to get thought onto disk at roughly the speed I think is important, as is knowing my editor well enough to let me manipulate my code in much the same way I'm manipulating the abstract representation I'm thinking about.

In this instance I'm talking about vim, but it doesn't matter, being able to operate on code in a context that matches the way you're thinking about it is invaluable in my opinion.

That said, I felt this was a bit over the top. While I totally think that this pays dividends, I don't think it enough to write a novella like he has.

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#148
> For the first 1-2 years of your Vim usage you will be much less efficient than your current editor because of the odd yet lovable key bindings. After about 2 years you will be proficient.

Really? For me it was closer to 2 months rather than 2 years. 2 months is still a significant chunk of time to invest in learning a text editor, but given that it's one of the most used pieces of software, it's worth it.

> followed by knowing some cool tricks that you use in 1% of your daily workflow.

If that's the case, then you are not learning the right tricks. Vim has a tonne of different way of moving and editing text. Most people don't use the majority of those. Instead, they find the subset that is most useful to them and ignore the rest.

> The argument that Vim is more efficient is dubious and untestable.

It is most certainly testable. Whether or not it has been tested is another question. Is anyone aware of any serious usability studies for Vim?

> but developers are commonly on machines where the trackpad is a micro-hand movement away.

Maybe it's just me, but I find using a trackpad a lot slower than using a mouse.

> The point of a mouse is to make arbitrary on screen jumps efficient, and it’s very good at doing that. Don’t you ever think you can beat a mouse. Only in very few edge cases will it even matter.

I agree that mouse is the way to go when you want to move arbitrarily around the screen. But when programming that's rarely the case. Normally, you want to move to a specific place (a particular line, the definition of the class/function, a specific place in the document). Vim allows you to do these things efficiently.

> Consider that Vim has been around since 1991. Pathogen, the first widely used, known, and celebrated path manager making plugin management possible, was released in 2008!

This is irrelevant. The important thing that, right now, Vim has a decent way of managing plugins. Though I agree -- it's embarrassing how long it took to get there.

> Vim out of the box is awful. I can’t stress how bad of an editor vanilla Vim is. Plugins are essential to make Vim usable.

This is partly true. You definitely want to customize Vim before you use it for any serious development work. But it's not like vanilla Vim is completely unusable. I ssh into servers and edit config files and write short scripts all the time. I find that vanilla Vim is more than adequate for that. Besides it's not like setting up Vim on a new system needs to be a lot of effort -- once you have your perfect setup, just stick it on GitHub. Then configuring Vim on a new system is just a 'git clone'.

> Most Vim plugins haven’t been converted to Github projects yet. Vim Scripts acts as a featureless host, which is fine, except that it doesn’t offer any benefits. It has a nasty interface, and encourages the use of the Vim Wiki for project management

No argument here...

> Ah, Vimscript. It’s bad. And yet we’re stuck with it.

Yes, I agree. But most Vim users don't really need to deal with it, as you yourself point out:

> Most experienced Vimmers I know don’t know any Vimscript

> Finding the right Vim plugins is like being in an exclusive club. It gets better around year 2 of your journey, then worse around year 3, then…

Yup, I have to agree with this one. Though there are number of resources that recommend good plugin sets; and there things like python-mode that integrate several plugins for a specific purpose.

> Everyone remaps Leader from backslash to comma.

I don't.

> Do you know what the suggested way to work well with multiple files in Vim is? It’s the arglist.

Never used it. Fuf works pretty well for me.

> Vim Is Bad By Design™ 2: GUI

I really don't get this entire section. Vim uses a fixed width font because it is a programmer's editor, and not using fixed with fonts when writing code or editing configs is madness. If you want fancy typesetting, you're using Vim for something it wasn't designed for.

RE Vim being ugly. It kind of is out of the box. But powerline (which the post mentions) + a custom theme + a custom font solve that.

RE Vim lacking GUI. Yes that's true and that is by design. If you want a rich GUI and would prefer to use the mouse to navigate between files, select menu options etc, Vim isn't for you.

> Vim is Oddly Bad at Indenting

Indentation preferences vary wildly, even within the same language; Vim provides the tools to set up the indentation you need. I agree that out-of-the-box support for some common languages could be improved.

Vim is definitely not for every one, but for those willing to invest the effort (and it really isn't as much as this post makes it out to be), it can be a very powerful, flexible, and efficient editor. I have never used SubilmeText (though heard a lot of good things about it) so can't really comment to what it would be a better/worse alternative to Vim. This post doesn't seem to address to what extent SublimeText solves the issues outlined for Vim, and it specifically should be used instead of Vim (as opposed to Emacs, PSpad, UltraEdit, etc..)

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#149
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what kind of medication the OP stopped taking The OP has a really "sane" take on things imho (yes, it's incredibly opinionated , but it's blog post featured on HN, not a SO question someone like you can close in minute :) - and I'm glad he bothered to write it, as I'd probably just send the link to it to any newbies asking me about "the magical vim" instead of bothering to tell them what I think) and he's right on…

Notepad++ is good enough until you need to do a regex search that includes new lines in it.

?? he can do, in Ctrl-F dialog box enable ". matches newline", I've done that more than once and never had any problem...?

Re: Just Use Sublime Text

#150
post #86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the info! But you are missing the point entirely (or rather proving it).

I got the point just fine, I just didn't speak to it. You feel that for Vim vs Sublime, one can only be considered superior to the other when context is taken into account, correct? Well, that's not the case with driver heads. There isn't a serious application that I can think of where slot screw heads would be superior for either carpentry or electronics. Or any discipline, really. Their only benefit is that in low-…

Until you need to open a can of paint. HA!
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