Live data from Hacker News

Thinking the unthinkable

anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com

141–150 of 462 posts

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#141
post #107

> Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. There are crazy people in every country on earth, many (most) of which have worse "health care" systems than the US; yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I very much doubt it has anything to do with mental health (nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such…

I hear that a lot, that most countries in the world have worse health care than the US. This is a highly contentious claim, and I think you might need to justify that, with reference to mental health in particular.

In a comment above, where I discuss the policy of the states in Australia, I suggested googling 'bendigo mental health'. If you do that you will see a degree of specialisation that far exceeds your presumptive normalcy.

Events such as these do appear to occur in clusters, and this leads to complicated questions. And of course it has to do with mental health, unless you honestly believe that such acts can be carried out by well balanced, psychologically stable individuals.

Inurement by familiarity I would agree is a factor, but it cuts both ways. There was a mass killing in Australia which followed only one month after a mass killing event in the UK, where I live. Isolated individuals also require social connections, and the strange self esteem accessible through active association with like minded others, even if unknown personally to them, seems to play a part. It's never a wise move to allow mentally damaged people to join a nervous uprising against the incumbent ideology, that often is seen as part of the reason for their repressed state. Though it might seem tortured logic on these actors parts, I think one of the reasons these shooting incidents are somewhat peculiar to the United States is because these actors see it as a right to bear arms against their oppressors.

On the other hand, the response of the rest of society is critical to developing ways to resolving ways to avoid these events. Either you exert enough pressure to put the uprisings back in their box, to be modified by planned action in due course, or you eek them out into a system of redress that has the capacity to control.

Either way it is indeed a mental health issue from a public health perspective. And their right to bear arms is guaranteed in defence of their freedom, through logic that is strange and barely comprehensible to most of us.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#142
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the CT shooter was never in trouble with the law and wasn't known to have any violent tendencies. And most people are not like the OP blogger: they aren't going to turn in their child to the authorities. A schizophrenic may not ever have violent tendencies. Then, one day a voice tells them to kill everyone. Meanwhile, someone without a mental illness has a moment of rage and threatens to kill a guy at a bar. Do w…

I'm betting on that you are completely wrong about that. That the signs were completely obvious to everyone around these guys. People knew that they were some deeply fucked up kids with huge mental problems long before they went on their killing sprees. But mental illness is something incredibly shameful around the world and maybe even moreso in the US. Almost no parent will ever be able to admit that there might be…

There are plenty of deeply fucked up people with huge mental problems who do not go on to kill anyone.

Should we lock up those people to prevent the small number who might go on to commit violent crime?

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#143
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States also has more than 50 times the population of Finland. Normalize!

Here is the list http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/20/the-worst-mass-shootings... It certainly looks like Scandinavia and the UK might have a problem. Europe as a whole still has fewer than the US for a similar population but it is high. None for China, India or Brazil. So it is not just about normalisation...

Please. 'it is high' in Europe'? Playing it fast and loose with the word 'high' if you ask me.

Of those mentioned in the list; 6 in the past 25 years are in Europe. 3 shootings, on this list alone, happened in the US in the past 6 months! Most European countries probably haven't had any of this type of thing happen in the past 25+ years.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#144
post #3

This is incredibly important. Every time I talk to people from outside of the country about the US, the first thing that comes up is the difficulty of obtaining proper healthcare.

Is there any evidence that healthcare would help with this situation?

Do you think he wasn't getting mental health care? It was reported that he was on medication.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#145
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk this over with a molecular biologist. Its never gonna happen. Some pathologies are (or have components that are) hereditary. Of those things, a handful are specific gene mutations or groups of mutations. These mental illnesses are so poorly understood... None (to my knowledge) have been shown to be genetic. And its not just that we haven't found the underlying genetic reason. There probably isn't an underlying g…

Mental illnesses are not understood at all, I'll agree with that. I would be hesitant to assume that they're not genetic, though - I've personally decided not to have children entirely due to the fact that mental illness is so prevalent in my partner's family (about 50% of the current should have been treated for the same things that the "crazy" people have been hospitalized for. DNA may only be one piece of the puzz…

Families have other ways of passing on psychological problems besides genes. Just wanted to mention that. Not saying that genes never play a part, I don't know.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#146
post #107

> Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. There are crazy people in every country on earth, many (most) of which have worse "health care" systems than the US; yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I very much doubt it has anything to do with mental health (nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such…

When you comment on something as serious as this you should have your facts straight. Automatic weapons are highly regulated in the US, and no automatic weapon has ever been used in a school shooting to my knowledge.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#147
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States also has more than 50 times the population of Finland. Normalize!

Gladly! Firearm related death rate, per 100K of population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-re... US: 9.0 Switzerland: 6.4 Finland: 3.64 Germany: 1.1 UK: 0.25 ...

It seems that that data gives statistics for a single year, and not the same year for each country. While the annual gun-related death rate may be somewhat stable for the U.S., I would guess it varies a lot from year to year in smaller countries depending on whether there was a major incident that year or not. I'd want to look across a similar-size population (e.g. all of EU) and (say) a 10 year span, and then calculate #deaths/year/1,000 population

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#148

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. She forgot to mention the time(s) he threatened to run away. (I'd be surprised if he didn't.) After a marathon of transfers, expulsions,…

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too.

I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story.

My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9. He threw a rock at my even older brother straight at his head. Nobody could tell him what to do. Once he run away from home on a bus heading to a big city. Had he not been spotted by some friends of the family we may never had seen him again.

When they returned him my grandfather advised my mom, who has a strong temper, not to scold him. So she did not. From there after he became even more uncontrollable. And now he would threaten my mother that he would run away if he didn't get his way.

Seeing the truth in his eyes my mom realized that one of this days he was going to run away and this time it might be for good. So this is what my mother decided to do as a last resort:

She tied him up from the feet to a branch of a tree. Basically he was hanging upside down. My mother told him that since he was going to run away she'd rather kill him so that at least that way she would know where he was. I believe at this moment my mom took out a belt, she might've hit him once or twice with it, and asked him if he was going to run away. My brother, as you can imagine, was terrified and crying and telling my mom that he would never do it again.

Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away.

Now my brother is a grown man, in his 40's. He has a family, a house and is a productive man of society. Overall he turned out pretty good.

Mind you that it wasn't like my mom would abuse her children with beatings every other day. But you could definitely expect a beating if you really misbehaved. Not once did I get a beating nor do I remember any of my sisters getting a beating. Just trying to establish that she was not an abusive mother.

All of this happened south of the USA border.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#149
post #62
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be politically incorrect to say right now, but I think the genes associated with mental illnesses that have a tendency to lead to violence will be phased out by a future generation sometime within this century and the next. We'll soon enough try gun control. That won't stop mass killings. Then we'll try increased mental healthcare access. That won't do much because we'll struggle with the Constitutionality o…

Talk this over with a molecular biologist. Its never gonna happen. Some pathologies are (or have components that are) hereditary. Of those things, a handful are specific gene mutations or groups of mutations. These mental illnesses are so poorly understood... None (to my knowledge) have been shown to be genetic. And its not just that we haven't found the underlying genetic reason. There probably isn't an underlying g…

Mmm...I'd hedge my bets a bit. I think a better generalization is that many psychiatric disorders are caused by genetic abnormalities (or clusters of abnormalities, or complemented with epigenetics), but that the potential pool of candidates is vast. It only takes a few rotten eggs in the whole batch to ruin things.

It's like a rocket. You need all the parts of a rocket to work or you won't get off the ground. If you are really unlucky, it may even explode

With psychiatric disorders, it's similar. Break a few choice genes and the whole system goes to shit. But unlike a rocket, it keeps working, just not in the fashion that other brains works. So you get some kind of disorder like schizophrenia or bipolar.

I was involved in a few projects where they were mapping schizophrenia with SNPs. Looking at the data, it's clear that some individuals cluster around certain SNPs...but most of them are scattered everywhere. Lots of things can cause schizophrenia, because it really isn't a single disease but a set of common symptoms.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#150
post #107

> Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. There are crazy people in every country on earth, many (most) of which have worse "health care" systems than the US; yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I very much doubt it has anything to do with mental health (nowhere else in the world are young children medicated for being kids to such…

I know HN frowns upon any kind of "political" discussion, so I'll won't elaborate too much, but can someone please explain why a school teacher would have three guns in her house, one of them a Glock semi-automatic pistol??

She liked to go shooting? It's a lot of fun to do.

I cannot understand for the life of me why the focus here is on guns. Americans have had ready access to guns throughout America's history, but mass shootings are a comparatively new phenomena that are sadly becoming increasingly frequent, so 'ready access to guns' doesn't seem like a particularly compelling explanation. Neither does the influence of media reporting, since this reporting is worldwide but the mass shootings remain predominantly American.

As an immigrant to America, I wonder if the emphasis on individualism and dynamism that makes America so appealing also comes with costs. People here may be more likely to take bold action to solve their problems (or perceived problems), and this includes the segment of the population that's criminal, evil, or mentally ill.

Now if so, this is nothing new - America's been a dynamic culture of entrepreneurs and dreamers long before this outbreak of mass violence. However, America previously combined this dynamism with stronger forms of moral education and social control - primarily religious ones, but also bonds to local communities and extended families. The gradual weakening of these bonds has coincided with the rise of mass shootings.

To sum up, America's individualistic, energetic culture minus a strong moral foundation and community ties = very bad news.

Of course, this is just my own theory, and it's probably wrong. Societies are complicated things. But I do wish people would dig about a bit more under the cultural hood before reflexively pinning the blame on firearms.

Post reply on HN