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Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

atproto.com

141–150 of 157 posts

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of the reason why I stopped heavily engaging with ActivityPub. It's not everyone because I know the team of folks who make apps for the space but it's engagement like this who convinced me to write https://www.jacky.wtf/essays/2024/one-over-other/ and had me just step away from ActivityPub (at least until I can see https://github.com/swicg/activitypub-api drop and I'll reengage).

This is a non-sequitur? ATProto was explicitly designed to not be compatible with ActivityPub. They shot first. So why are you focused on tone-policing ActivityPub?

What do you mean by “explicitly designed to not be compatible with ActivityPub”? What proof do you have for that other than “it doesn’t use ActivityPub”?

And you can’t tone police a standard. That’s very weird.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way that 99.99% of standard mastodon users are on mastodon.social, yes. No, the million of users sharing porn on entirely isolated mastodon instances that absolutely nobody wants to federate with because you'd be exposed to pictures of minors within 5 minutes do not count.

A bizarre exaggeration. In my feeds, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the people I follow use non-.social instances. The same cannot be said of Bluesky.

maybe 1/2 of the people in my bsky feeds use non bsky pds'es & clients?

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only viable instance" is not really the correct framing - Bluesky doesn't have instances . Anyone using ATProto without Bluesky will still be "on Bluesky". When you go to bsky.app, you're interacting with the Bluesky AppView ; one key feature of ATProto is that any AppView can interact with any (consenting) Personal Data Server (PDS). So you can self-host your PDS but still use bsky.app if you so choose. But critica…

The nightmare of the Wsocial rollout is a testament of the massive control Bluesky has on the ATProto network. If Wsocial was on ActivityPub or Nostr nothing similar would have happened. ATProto has serious centralisation problems, baked into the design. And it makes sense, considering it came out of a Twitter R&D experiment to "decentralise" Twitter itself. Pure federation was never part of the initial design. Activ…

Wait, how do you think these two things relate, exactly, and how does it point in the direction of “Bluesky has so much control”?

Thats a claim with zero evidence put forward, and one that if evidence were put forward, would swing the opposite way.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think decentralization is just not something users care about generally. - many people wish they could control what they see and who they talk to. (Eg control the algorithm, avoid censorship from big tech) - some people care about owning their data so it doesn’t go away when a company fails - technical people are interested in building more types of social apps that aren’t just twitter posts etc - nearly everyone j…

But Bluesky does not solve these points: - content not in line with the political left is censored - sure, you have your data in your PDS, but it is de-facto useless if the central identity server of Bluesky goes down - ActivityPub and Nostr solve this already without being owned by a company - you cannot easily and cheaply have an ATProto instance. AP and Nostr solve this already

> - content not in line with the political left is censored

Can you provide examples to me of this being true?

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators”. Especially it makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators that speak a specific vocabulary on top of RSS, host 99% of content using that vocabulary, and if you host your own RSS feed with said vocabulary they’ll show it in their aggregator but can ban it any minute”. Did I just describe Apple Podcasts? Huh. Regardless, yeah, there’s no “ATProto instances” technically, bu…

i guess that's fair, but i've never listened to a podcast from a non-foss app; i'm not really "in" the podcast sphere, but from where i'm sitting it seems podcasting would survive and migrate just fine if apple podcasts had to go away suddenly

I guess that’s fair, too. I’m not really into podcasts either, and the ecosystem seems healthy enough. Many FOSS podcast clients use Apple for discovery, which I guess make sense; but there’s probably other databases, and the contents themselves aren’t usually hosted by Apple, just the metadata.

So yeah, podcasts are in good shape. In fact, they are probably the most used decentralized media right now (apart from torrents, maybe). I hope Bluesky gets to that point, and I do wish them luck, but we’ve got to see the incentives are not that well aligned. As for the trademark... it’s surely weird, it’s not the end of the world if they continue to hold it, but setting up a non-profit (not in US, perhaps) for the protocol itself would probably be more appropriate down the road.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators”. Especially it makes sense to talk about “RSS aggregators that speak a specific vocabulary on top of RSS, host 99% of content using that vocabulary, and if you host your own RSS feed with said vocabulary they’ll show it in their aggregator but can ban it any minute”. Did I just describe Apple Podcasts? Huh. Regardless, yeah, there’s no “ATProto instances” technically, bu…

The solution to that is to create more apps, and for one of them to become more popular. This is entirely in our hands as developers.

The thing with ATProto is, there is little incentive in creating apps that speak the app.bsky vocabulary. If I understand correctly, there is one other full-fledged app that does that, Blacksky [0]. By full-fledged, I mean they host a PDS, a relay, an app view, a moderation service, and a bunch of feeds and other doodads. If Bluesky goes down, Blacksky will probably be fine. They are, however, yet another US company [1], which is not ideal.

[0]: https://docs.blacksky.community/

[1]: https://blackskyweb.xyz/about/support/tos/#:~:text=Blacksky%...

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#147
post #3

>We plan to transfer that ownership to an appropriate, independent protocol governance organization in the future. I never realized there is no independent governance org that should have registered this. So AT is governed by a single for-profit entity, that also runs the only viable instance?

>that also runs the only viable instance? This is a category error. There are no "instances" in atproto. https://overreacted.io/there-are-no-instances-in-atproto/ It segments the network differently (into "hosting" and "apps"), and on both axes anyone can run their independent app-agnostic hosting, as well as an independent hosting-agnostic app.

Thanks, this is informative. I had meant 'instance' from more of a general user adoption perspective (i.e. Bluesky app user plus Bluesky PDS tenant), but based on other comments here that may not be too accurate either.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#148
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dan, you really should refine this line of reasoning a bit as it feels not very nice in some way: it feels like you're picking an unintuitive/uncommon definition for "instance" and then using that to tell everyone they're misunderstanding stuff then they're using different, arguably more widely accepted, definitions. We've had a very similar discussion in response to this same argument recently elsewhere on HN. If yo…

Let me try to explain my position. The parent post says "the only viable instance" which implicitly packs an assumption of Mastodon-like topology: a single product is expected to be split into many "instances", with some of them being more or less "viable", and that a lack of many "viable" "instances" is perceived as the protocol not being a real thing, or failing to live up to its promise. (How else are you reading…

I think you're inferring something that people aren't implying, and that inference leads to you eventually discussing how ATProto is better than mastodon. I think this doesn't look great, particularly at a time where there's quite a few posts of about unproductive conflict between open social network contributors. I don't think there's any bad intent or malice on your side: there is value in comparison between AT/AP to help understanding.

Your argument that there are no instances in ATProto isn't flawed if you redefine instances as this thing that ATProto doesn't have. But if I run it by the various computer science definitions I can find (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instance_(computer_science)) then your argument seems like it depends on a niche interpretation. So it can be technically correct, but just irrelevant or inconvenient when used in a comp sci discussion involving the word "instance".

But your blog post on the subject is interesting, and informative, and has some great diagrams, and the original parent poster agreed and learned stuff from it. Despite that, I think the implication in the parent post was, IMO, "so the main, largest implementer (instance) of the protocol is also a for-profit which owns the trademarks? I never realised that, I'd assume the protocol was governed and run by a not-for-profit independent governance org, charity or consortium" (like some other open protocols).

I think that's a fair and slightly critical implication that has nothing to do with network topology. I completely get how you would want to take issue with that implication alone, because without context like the trademark was acquired with good intent to protect protect openness, and that the Bluesky org is a specific type of for-profit (PBC) that expresses intent to favour public benefit and openness, it makes things sound more sinister than they are.

Ultimately, from an openness and independence position, I think it would be better looking from the outside if the ATProto and trademarks were governed and managed by a separate not-for-profit entity that wasn't tied to the biggest instance/implementation of the protocol. I think that was the point being made, and I don't think it's absurd. But I think refuting that argument by focusing on network topology and instance definitions seems like a misunderstanding somewhere.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PLC governance not having been moved yet is my one main gripe against ATProto/Atmosphere now. There is so much being built on top of this protocol, and I truly believe it has the chance to make the social web more decentralized while keeping everything connected. The PLC being controlled by one major commercial entity allows them to pull the plug so to speak. Say someone is sanctioned by the US, what stops Bluesk…

Technically it has moved (last year actually) but it just doesn't really look all that different in the day to day. https://atproto.com/blog/plc-directory-org

Did they actually create the org yet? I saw the news you are linking that they were going to start the process. But I've seen no follow up news about the organization actually being here and the ownership of the PLC directory having been transferred.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of this comment is an engineer at Bluesky.

Are you going to write it below my every comment? I've already replied to this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48933050 . Also, I don't think either claim in my reply is dependent on who wrote it. You can trivially verify them yourself.

If it's no issue, why not put a "note: I work for bluesky" on your posts?
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