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What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

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141–150 of 280 posts

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transformer ANNs are dramatically dumber than cockroaches Source?

My source is "none of us have ever seen a robot that can navigate unfamiliar 3D spaces as well as a cockroach." If transformers were capable of the job we would have seen a smart robot by now. But all of our robots are truly mindless compared to the simplest insects. I will change my mind if someone demonstrates such a robot. Absent this demonstration, cockroach-level AI is still an unsolved problem. Given how ignora…

We might as well say that none of us have ever seen a cockroach that can solve Erdos problems as well as an LLM. Or write code, or stories, etc.

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#142
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it is she had excellent PR skills and a dedicated fan base. I was at Google when she quit, working in ML, and hadn't heard of her until the story broke. I remember there were a large number of Memegen posts about it, but no one I spoke with knew about her, so I assumed it was brigading. I think she's since since lost a lot of her allure, especially when she didn't change her mind when the facts about…

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I missed that thread when it came out, it's really a wild read. The difference between how people describe her vs how she's normally portrayed in the media is really startling

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#143
post #6

The term is not very useful since most humans are stochastic parrots... At least most of the time. Not suggesting that I don't say stuff on autopilot sometimes but for many people, it's their only mode of operation. They never actually think about anything from first principles. Their whole approach to language is just chaining catchphrases together. It's how a toddler thinks; it seems like many people never moved pa…

Humans are not stochastic parrots. You are 100% wrong about toddlers. This was clearly explained by St. Augustine 1500 years ago: Did I not, then, as I grew out of infancy, come next to boyhood, or rather did it not come to me and succeed my infancy? My infancy did not go away (for where would it go?). It was simply no longer present; and I was no longer an infant who could not speak, but now a chattering boy. I reme…

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Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#144
post #132
post #37

I paid a bit of attention to this paper and the phrase 'stochastic parrots' when it came out and i thought this was worth saying and doing at that time. their suggestions about financial and environmental costs are worth studying, their concern about carefully evaluating datasets to feed to the model rather than feeding the entire internet is fully justified. so - to everyone saying this was a bad paper; if you have…

My main criticism of the paper is that it says LLMs work "haphazardly", using probabilistic information. That is a hypothesis, but it is stated as a known fact, a fundamental limitation. It is true that LLMs often behave haphazardly, and do rely on statistics. But plenty of research has shown them behaving in methodical ways too. There are findings going both ways! Granted, many of the strongest contradictory results…

not sure your criticism makes sense though - they did this pre chatgpt. they are talking about the language models of that time. they did not make predictions about the future.

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#145

> in part because Google fired two of the authors, Timnit Gebru I remember being angry about this situation when I first saw it on social media, until I read the details: This person submitted a list of demands to her employer and said that if they weren’t met, she quit. Google wasn’t going to meet her demands so they considered it acceptance of her resignation. There has been a movement trying to debate whether it w…

I think part of it is she had excellent PR skills and a dedicated fan base. I was at Google when she quit, working in ML, and hadn't heard of her until the story broke. I remember there were a large number of Memegen posts about it, but no one I spoke with knew about her, so I assumed it was brigading. I think she's since since lost a lot of her allure, especially when she didn't change her mind when the facts about…

What is interesting about it for me is: why would someone working on AI ethics choose to work for Google at all?

Did she really think Google cares about ethics? Such positions seem purely performative, we all know that ethics go out the window first to make room for more profits.

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#146
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, last time I checked, the environment where octopuses live is actually the exact same environment where dolphins live?

Well in a sense that monkeys and Great Condor inhabit the exact same environment.

That's a bit exaggerated - monkeys can't fly, but both dolphins and octopuses can swim. I'm aware octopuses prefer to stay at the bottom, while dolphins have to come to the surface regularly to breathe, but for me it's still the same environment...

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Transformer ANNs are dramatically dumber than cockroaches Source?

My source is "none of us have ever seen a robot that can navigate unfamiliar 3D spaces as well as a cockroach." If transformers were capable of the job we would have seen a smart robot by now. But all of our robots are truly mindless compared to the simplest insects. I will change my mind if someone demonstrates such a robot. Absent this demonstration, cockroach-level AI is still an unsolved problem. Given how ignora…

[dead]

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#148
Bender's paper had this to say about stochastic parrots:

"Contrary to how it may seem when we observe its output, an LM is a system for haphazardly stitching together sequences of linguistic forms it has observed in its vast training data, according to probabilistic information about how they combine, but without any reference to meaning: a stochastic parrot."

This was not even a correct criticism in 2021. She is right that, at the time, the pretraining -- where it learns to predict missing words in pre-existing corpuses of text -- is basically a stochastic parrot.

But nowhere in her paper does the term "reinforcement" come up. At the time, this was done mainly through RLHF (reinforcement learning from human feedback) - after the initial training is done, you then tune the model's responses based on human grading. Humans imbue their own meanings into the parameter weights through their judgment.

At this point, they aren't really stochastic parrots anymore, because parameter weights have been shaped beyond the text corpus. It's not purely probabilistic in the sense of using the probabilities of the underlying text sequences. (It still is probabilistic in its output, but that is a pointless claim, because all events in the universe are also probabilistic; it is not enough to merely claim that probability is involved in some way in the outputs.)

RLHF was already in use prior to the paper, and was written about by Christiano in 2017 "Deep reinforcement learning from human preferences," so it's surprising that Bender apparently didn't know about this well-known paper.

RLHF was also, of course, a precursor to a more advanced form of parameter shaping - reinforcement learning with verified rewards, or RLVF, which has driven a lot of the gains in verifiable domains lately. That was not done in 2021 when she wrote the paper. But if you knew about RLHF -- and knew how Alpha Zero worked, with training neural nets on game rollouts -- you could squint and see that it might be useful for language models.

So after being proven to not only having a limited understanding of the field at the time, but also not being able to forecast the field, she's now walking back what she meant by "stochastic parrot," I assume because she believes readers will not read what she wrote. But despite the protests, her original claim was that it is a parrot because the text has no meaning -- a direct quote from the paper, which only really makes sense if training stops at the pretrain.

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#149
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main criticism of the paper is that it says LLMs work "haphazardly", using probabilistic information. That is a hypothesis, but it is stated as a known fact, a fundamental limitation. It is true that LLMs often behave haphazardly, and do rely on statistics. But plenty of research has shown them behaving in methodical ways too. There are findings going both ways! Granted, many of the strongest contradictory results…

not sure your criticism makes sense though - they did this pre chatgpt. they are talking about the language models of that time. they did not make predictions about the future.

They did use RLHF at the time, at which point it is not a pure probabilistic representation of the training corpora. Bizarrely, RLHF never came up in the paper.

Re: What Emily Bender meant by "stochastic parrots"

#150
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in a sense that monkeys and Great Condor inhabit the exact same environment.

That's a bit exaggerated - monkeys can't fly, but both dolphins and octopuses can swim. I'm aware octopuses prefer to stay at the bottom, while dolphins have to come to the surface regularly to breathe, but for me it's still the same environment...

You know monkeys can swim? Do you know what happens to a monkey 2-6km under the surface? Monkeys can also climb trees, very high. Monkey still no condor, sadly.
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