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How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

quantamagazine.org

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Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#141

Post by dpark »

Noaidi wrote: post #133
dpark wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard pass. The exact area of a circle is pi*r^2. We can calculate decimals of pi arbitrarily far, certainly further than our ability to measure. “Exact area” means we use symbolic math, not that we quibble about significant digits.

Pi is an infinite number. Each time we calculate the area of a circle with another decimal of pi we get a new answer. You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite. I am saying that the area of a circle is impossible to know. And that has both philosophical and physical ramifications. Very fact that this well-known scientific truth is hard to accept tho…

> Pi is an infinite number.

Your own link confirms this is not true. Irrational is not the same thing as infinite.

> You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite.

I’m not avoiding it. I’m saying it’s a meaningless question. 16 digits of pi will be more precise than essentially anything we can measure. Just 3 digits of pi will probably be more precise than you can measure at home.

If you need perfection, you stick with symbolic math. If you need to convert to absolute physical units, your ability to measure will be your limit, not the irrationality of pi.

> Very fact that this well-known scientific truth is hard to accept those people is telling.

It’s not hard to accept. It’s not interesting. There are no physical problems related to this fact. And no interesting philosophical problems.

Your problem isn’t that you lack the knowledge but that you are overconfident in your ignorance. You lack the curiosity to ask why no one is impressed or convinced by your beliefs, instead assuming everyone else is missing the deep insights you believe you possess.

This is why you can cite someone’s article about everything being quantum waves as support for your personal beliefs while also confidently stating that the article’s author is completely wrong for believing in quantum waves. Because you are not looking for information. You are looking for confirmation. You are rendered blind by your hubris.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#142

Post by solid_fuel »

Noaidi wrote: post #135
solid_fuel wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not a breakthrough, it is just something we refuse to see, something that was known for a century. This sounds like you're about to try selling me a crystal and a magic ritual. The wording here is far too grandiose, and I assure you physicists are not "refusing to see" that "everything is a wave". Whatever you imagine that might mean. > The very notion of calling it "qunatum" physics is probably wrong since q…

Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it? The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything. For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that?

> Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it?

No.

> The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything.

No.

> For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that?

Read what I wrote again. The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave functions) is discrete. This is because energy is quantized and does not exist in continuous quantities. The transfer of energy in quantum systems is therefore discrete, which is the whole reason it is called quantum mechanics.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#143

Post by tsimionescu »

Noaidi wrote: post #139
tsimionescu wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To measure is to quantize, so this is circular reasoning. This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Measurement (which is a precisely defined mathematical concept) is not the same thing as quantization. For a very basic example, in all known physics theories, including QFT, SR, and GR, space and time can be measured, and they are not quantized. In fact, there is no theory compatible with SR in which space and time ca…

> space and time can be measured, and they are not quantized. Yet… Because we do not have the formulas does not mean they are not quantized. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-time-quantized...

Again, our current theories all agree that space and time are continuous, not quantized. Quantized space or time are not consistent with either QFT or GR.

Now, we do know that QFT and GR are not consistent with each other, so at least one new theory is necessary, at least one of them must be wrong. So the new theory could involve quantized space or time - but it could very well not. We don't know at the moment, and all we know is that our best theories, limited as they may be, require continuous space and time (and other quantities).

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#144

Post by Noaidi »

solid_fuel wrote: post #142
Noaidi wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it? The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything. For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that?

> Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it? No. > The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything. No. > For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that? Read what I wrote again. The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave fu…

> The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave functions) is discrete.

What exists between the wave functions?

> This is because energy is quantized and does not exist in continuous quantities.

"Quantized" in quantum mechanics means that a physical quantity can take only a discrete set of values rather than any value from a continuous range.

Yes, energy is quantized because we see it separate from a continuum. Because we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum. This is the theory of everything is wave in a nutshell.

Since you have another theory, that the wave function can have properties of a particle and a wave, so you disagree with me. To me, the wave function only shows the properties of a wave, after you have made a measurement, the probability of what you have measured suddenly changes to 1, and the wave function appears as a particle, but still has the properties of a wave, which are there, but ignored.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#145

Post by Noaidi »

tsimionescu wrote: post #143
Noaidi wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> space and time can be measured, and they are not quantized. Yet… Because we do not have the formulas does not mean they are not quantized. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-time-quantized...

Again, our current theories all agree that space and time are continuous, not quantized. Quantized space or time are not consistent with either QFT or GR. Now, we do know that QFT and GR are not consistent with each other, so at least one new theory is necessary, at least one of them must be wrong. So the new theory could involve quantized space or time - but it could very well not. We don't know at the moment, and a…

> all we know is that our best theories

Which is why we need new theories, and "everything is a wave" is a new theory.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#146

Post by Noaidi »

dpark wrote: post #141
Noaidi wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pi is an infinite number. Each time we calculate the area of a circle with another decimal of pi we get a new answer. You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite. I am saying that the area of a circle is impossible to know. And that has both philosophical and physical ramifications. Very fact that this well-known scientific truth is hard to accept tho…

> Pi is an infinite number. Your own link confirms this is not true. Irrational is not the same thing as infinite. > You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite. I’m not avoiding it. I’m saying it’s a meaningless question. 16 digits of pi will be more precise than essentially anything we can measure. Just 3 digits of pi will probably be more precise t…

> Your own link confirms this is not true. Irrational is not the same thing as infinite.

Huh? From the article:

"Pi is a non-terminating and non-recurring irrational number. When we say that pi is infinite, we intend to say that pi has an infinite expression, not an infinite value."

That is what I meat by infinte, as in the number never ends.

I am not commenting about being more precise. I am talking about exactness. Yes, with every didgit we add to pi we become more precise, and there is a limit to what we need, but to know that there is not exact value we can give to the area of a thing, how can we say that is a thing at a deeper level? If we know things because we "measure them" and measuring is never exact, what do we really know?

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#147

Post by solid_fuel »

Noaidi wrote: post #144
solid_fuel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it? No. > The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything. No. > For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that? Read what I wrote again. The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave fu…

> The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave functions) is discrete. What exists between the wave functions? > This is because energy is quantized and does not exist in continuous quantities. "Quantized" in quantum mechanics means that a physical quantity can take only a discrete set of values rather than any value from a continuous range. Yes, energy is quantized because we…

> What exists between the wave functions?

There is no state between the stable wave functions, because when energy is delivered to an electron in an orbital it comes as a discrete quantity all at once.

> Yes, energy is quantized because we see it separate from a continuum. Because we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum. This is the theory of everything is wave in a nutshell.

Sure, and your "theory" is wrong. Energy only exists in quantized steps, it is not continuous. That's not just an artifact of measurement, it's an artifact of reality.

If you have serious disagreements about quantum physics, derive the math to describe your theory and publish a paper. Show some math. Show some evidence. You're one step away from being written off as a crank right now. Don't just go around talking about how you and you alone have somehow "cracked the code" that physicists just can't get. It's nonsense.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#148

Post by Noaidi »

solid_fuel wrote: post #147
Noaidi wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wave function itself is continuous but the jump between states (aka between wave functions) is discrete. What exists between the wave functions? > This is because energy is quantized and does not exist in continuous quantities. "Quantized" in quantum mechanics means that a physical quantity can take only a discrete set of values rather than any value from a continuous range. Yes, energy is quantized because we…

> What exists between the wave functions? There is no state between the stable wave functions, because when energy is delivered to an electron in an orbital it comes as a discrete quantity all at once. > Yes, energy is quantized because we see it separate from a continuum. Because we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum. This is the theory of everything is wave in a nuts…

> Energy only exists in quantized steps, it is not continuous.

The fact that you think I disagree with this means you do not understand me, nor the idea of the wave function.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#149

Post by solid_fuel »

Noaidi wrote: post #148
solid_fuel wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What exists between the wave functions? There is no state between the stable wave functions, because when energy is delivered to an electron in an orbital it comes as a discrete quantity all at once. > Yes, energy is quantized because we see it separate from a continuum. Because we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum. This is the theory of everything is wave in a nuts…

> Energy only exists in quantized steps, it is not continuous. The fact that you think I disagree with this means you do not understand me, nor the idea of the wave function.

> The fact that you think I disagree with this means you do not understand me, nor the idea of the wave function.

You said

> Yes, energy is quantized because we see it separate from a continuum. Because we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum. This is the theory of everything is wave in a nutshell.

It's not that I don't understand you, it's that you clearly don't even understand what you're trying to say.

Right here, you say energy is not quantized but we think that it is because "we SEE it as separate from a continuum does not mean it is separate from any continuum". You are contradicting yourself because you are very far outside your limit of understanding.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#150

Post by dpark »

Noaidi wrote: post #146
dpark wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pi is an infinite number. Your own link confirms this is not true. Irrational is not the same thing as infinite. > You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite. I’m not avoiding it. I’m saying it’s a meaningless question. 16 digits of pi will be more precise than essentially anything we can measure. Just 3 digits of pi will probably be more precise t…

> Your own link confirms this is not true. Irrational is not the same thing as infinite. Huh? From the article: "Pi is a non-terminating and non-recurring irrational number. When we say that pi is infinite, we intend to say that pi has an infinite expression, not an infinite value." That is what I meat by infinte, as in the number never ends. I am not commenting about being more precise. I am talking about exactness.…

> to know that there is not exact value we can give to the area of a thing

Pi has an exact value. It is irrational, not inexact.

This is increasingly irrelevant and inaccurate rambling I’m engaging with. I’m out. Take care.

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