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The Coming Loop

lucumr.pocoo.org

141–150 of 322 posts

Re: The Coming Loop

#141
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am exhausted. Most of my company is obsessed with agents, because everyone wants to be seen as AI first. There is little thought going into usage. No care for long term maintainability and quality. Our product is actively worse by many metrics, but no one cares because we marketing can say “agents”. The sad part is that this technology is incredible. It’s us choosing to turn it into a slop cannon (and the labs…

Same here, I think the tool is fantastic, it has helped me in lots of way professionally and for hobby projects involving skills I'm not experienced with but I'm absolutely exhausted. The worst part is that I'm not exhausted from my work, I've been through a heavy burnout before and had to adapt my ways of working to not fall into that kind of exhaustion again. This is different, it's not a pressure to deliver anythi…

Reviewing AI slop is data labelling and it isn't very different from what people in 3rd world do labeling various images. Constant context switching is what causes the exhaustion. It's the equivalent of the 6pm stop and go traffic. You used to be an F1 driver. Now you're an instructor for bad drivers.

Re: The Coming Loop

#142
AI infrastructure/tools developer and researcher here (hic-ai.com). I fully agree with Armin's concerns.

I wrote an article recently (https://hic-ai.com/blog/tool-response-engineering) in which I argued that AI tool-engineering is the new frontier beyond prompts, and it talks about the agent loop and engineering loops, but boy I have a completely different perspective than Boris's. Rather than contending that prompts are no longer relevant because we can simply have AI think for us by having loops "prompt Claude and figuring out what to do", like what Boris claimed, I believe we have to think much harder now.

Why problems require human judgment and can't just be offloaded to an AI agent is simply this: AI agents lack durable, long-lasting, unique identities forged by real-world memories and experience, and they therefore lack judgment. There is no well-defined notion of having AI agents communicate to each other because they can't even tell the difference between talking to their future self or talking to another agent! They certainly don't reliably weigh whether a proposed fix to a failing unit test will subtly introduce new fallback logic that was never requested or otherwise alter the functionality of the system under test in some manner, or whether now is the time to refactor or now is the time not to refactor or whether to abstract more or less or anything like that. Most importantly, from a practical perspective: AI agents lack legal person status, and they therefore cannot own property or money, sue or be sued, be hired or fired, or otherwise be held financially responsible for their errors or other harmful acts they commit. Clearly, AI agents cannot even arguably qualify for legal personhood status in the future, unless and until they first are capable of assuming a unique and durable long-term identity, which in turn requires solving auth, memory, communications, and many other technical issues that are neither resolved nor standardized today. These facts combine to ensure that AI agents cannot be held liable and financially responsible when things go wrong, meaning that humans alone bear the costs of AI errors until further notice, and thus, human judgment remains the vital commodity that AI cannot replace. So many problems arise from abdicating judgment to AI agent in 2026!

Now, if all the above items were in existence, built, well-settled, etc., maybe I'd have to rethink things. But unless and until AI agents have unique identities and attain legal person status with bank accounts that can be sued and garnished in case of error, I don't think AI agents can seriously be trusted. Good human judgment and approval of all important decisions will remain the most important resource for any successful enterprise, for the foreseeable future. I think it's a very serious mistake to assume that human judgment can be swapped out safely by AI and certainly advise against taking Boris literally. Anyway, great article.

Re: The Coming Loop

#143

As much as I like Claude Code, Boris has done a lot of harm by encouraging software engineering practices that lead to slopware. We have two camps of people at work, the first camp are the agent goes brrr. They don't understand the code they write. They have loops running, agent orchestrators or agent hype du jour. The second camp is people who are inundated with PRs, are holding the line on quality, and just exhaust…

As long as the LLM can unravel, repair, and improve the slopware it creates, that's where we are necessarily going. The code will continue to be maintainable, by the LLM. I'm used to this idea and I for one welcome...

Re: The Coming Loop

#144

As much as I like Claude Code, Boris has done a lot of harm by encouraging software engineering practices that lead to slopware. We have two camps of people at work, the first camp are the agent goes brrr. They don't understand the code they write. They have loops running, agent orchestrators or agent hype du jour. The second camp is people who are inundated with PRs, are holding the line on quality, and just exhaust…

> We've also had some management pressures where they think people are wasting time looking at code.

I feel like this is the actual problem, but it's not being talked about enough.

Logically, it shouldn't matter how a piece of code was written. It either meets our engineering standards or it doesn't. That's what code review is for.

But what has actually happened is that, because we have AI now, many organizations have normalized practices that weren't normal before, like submitting 10000-line PRs. And just, in general, submitting code that you yourself don't seem to fully understand.

If management doesn't push back on such things (or will even push back against people who try to do so), then reviewers have basically no incentive to push back either. Before I left my last job (for unrelated reasons), I had entered this mode, wherein I decided I couldn't really carefully review these monstrous AI PRs, while also getting my own work done, while also not burning out. So I chose the latter two.

Re: The Coming Loop

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a terrible analogy that shows terrible thinking. After all, there's one thing we can bet with more confidence on: delegating thinking to this mediocrity machines is affecting the ability to do the same in scores and scores of previously smart people.

Terrible thinking? Delegating thinking to mediocrity machines? "Previously" smart people? I don't think you can project your own limited and malformed understanding of the world any harder. Please go touch grass and learn how to engage with others on the internet without being so negative.

Terrible thinking:

yes, it's just bad thinking. It's a malformed comparison that misunderstands the conversation.

Delegating thinking to mediocrity machines:

Based on the statistical nature of their underlying math, LLMs are by definition mediocrity-producing machines, especially if you understand the etymology of mediocre.

Previously smart people:

Cognitive atrophy in people overrelying on LLMs and agents seems to be inevitable: https://www.media.mit.edu/publications/your-brain-on-chatgpt...

Maybe my understanding of the word is limited and malformed, or maybe you could try to develop one that takes into consideration the humanities, art, the sublime, love, emotions, and everything that makes humans human, instead of looking at the world through the small, mechanistic lens of the hyperengineerization of everything.

Re: The Coming Loop

#146

As much as I like Claude Code, Boris has done a lot of harm by encouraging software engineering practices that lead to slopware. We have two camps of people at work, the first camp are the agent goes brrr. They don't understand the code they write. They have loops running, agent orchestrators or agent hype du jour. The second camp is people who are inundated with PRs, are holding the line on quality, and just exhaust…

> We've also had some management pressures where they think people are wasting time looking at code. I feel like this is the actual problem, but it's not being talked about enough. Logically, it shouldn't matter how a piece of code was written. It either meets our engineering standards or it doesn't. That's what code review is for. But what has actually happened is that, because we have AI now, many organizations hav…

Management can't "push back on such things". However, they can institute better quality assurance practices.

Re: The Coming Loop

#147
I can't help but be tired of the LLM trendy, where people bang at loops until they hope the model sculpts something. It feels so empty mentally to just have results without constructing it.

That said the idea of loop has always been there (iteration, V cycle etc) but I'd be glad to find people with more theory and less agents swinging blindly so to speak.

Re: The Coming Loop

#148

As much as I like Claude Code, Boris has done a lot of harm by encouraging software engineering practices that lead to slopware. We have two camps of people at work, the first camp are the agent goes brrr. They don't understand the code they write. They have loops running, agent orchestrators or agent hype du jour. The second camp is people who are inundated with PRs, are holding the line on quality, and just exhaust…

This sums up the dynamic: https://x.com/danhockenmaier/status/2021617680525172840

What a smug, dickish way to try to make a point. (But he’s still on Twitter, so I guess that makes sense.)

Re: The Coming Loop

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am exhausted. Most of my company is obsessed with agents, because everyone wants to be seen as AI first. There is little thought going into usage. No care for long term maintainability and quality. Our product is actively worse by many metrics, but no one cares because we marketing can say “agents”. The sad part is that this technology is incredible. It’s us choosing to turn it into a slop cannon (and the labs…

This too shall pass. The journey was as important as the destination if not more because it gave confidence in oneself, it made us grow. I mean to suggest, coding for the sake of coding "I wish to code for myself, nothing else": (I had written this somewhere else on HN): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48609962 If I may ask you and others, I assume that you are at a relatively decent position within your company…

> Why aren't employees more honest about AI and concerns regarding it

Because it’s being pushed by the c-suite and board, so most people aren’t in a position to push back. And it’s a quasi-religion now, so even pushing back at all can result in being branded as a “skeptic”.

People do raise concerns, though. And the responses aren’t very satisfactory. For example, the biggest concern that has been raised thus far is open PRs, and the answer has always been that all we need is AI code review.

Re: The Coming Loop

#150
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This too shall pass. The journey was as important as the destination if not more because it gave confidence in oneself, it made us grow. I mean to suggest, coding for the sake of coding "I wish to code for myself, nothing else": (I had written this somewhere else on HN): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48609962 If I may ask you and others, I assume that you are at a relatively decent position within your company…

> If I may ask you and others, I assume that you are at a relatively decent position within your company and have somewhat say in it. Why aren't employees more honest about AI and concerns regarding it? We've tried it where I work at. People put effort to compile studies, to collect testimonials, catalog and organise the strengths and weaknesses based on engineers' experiences with the tooling. The result was the per…

Sometimes I feel like the entire SV C-suite were handed brain slugs at around the same time.

Heh, maybe that’s the actual strength of AI: convincing people with C-suite personalities to propagate it at any cost. A purely digital zombie virus.

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