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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

141–150 of 695 posts

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why no one buys Windows laptops I guess.

Windows is the most popular OS for laptops in the US precisely because it does what people want for a price they want to pay.

Is this totally true? There is advertising, marketing spend and retail shelf space. Surely it's more complex than "solves users problem at price point."

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#142
The title should read 'it's hard to justify buying any other laptop than the Neo in the sub $1000 space'. It's an absolute unit of a computer; the only more revolutionary box would be the M1 Air (or the original Air. maybe. my vote is on the M1.)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#143
Oh man I couldn't imagine comparing Framework / 12 to Apple / Neo: apples and oranges

I would never bother with Apple's locked down proprietary software / hardware "ecosystem"

For me it's hard justifying buying an Apple Neo ever basically as a contrary article

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#144
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never run out of memory on macoOS on my M1 Air 16GB. Now that I use Asahi on it, I had plenty of OoM crashes. macOS is really good at memory management, including the compression and offloading to the fast SSD.

You have a buggy program. Zswap has been available for quite a while.

I'm yet to see a linux distro with memory configured correctly out of the box. (I haven't looked too hard, but the defaults are abysmal.)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#145

What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago. And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end. The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a…

SSD is also soldered for little performance advantage.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#146
The framework 12 is the ideal couch device for a developer, in ultra power saving mode it’s good enough for most websites, and it having a quickly getting hot 13th gen intel cpu means you also got a dev machine on the low end spectrum, not a vm, but an actual piece of hardware a typical user might have and not some 32 thread 64 gb monster

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#147

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1]

My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents.

Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery.

Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids.

Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop.

[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/unpleasant-solvent-like...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#148
post #142

The title should read 'it's hard to justify buying any other laptop than the Neo in the sub $1000 space'. It's an absolute unit of a computer; the only more revolutionary box would be the M1 Air (or the original Air. maybe. my vote is on the M1.)

The original Air was not good.

I think you mean the second gen Air (SSD-only, c2010), which was an incredible combination of price, performance, and usability.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#149
post #50
post #6

If you're ideologically willing to use a Mac, you're really not the market that the Framework is targeting. Apple has always had some of the best hardware. Where they really struggle is in respecting user choice and allowing power users to alter their systems. The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. They're fundamentally intended for different people. If your choice of platform is driven by hardware instead…

> The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. I get where you're coming from in principle, but I'm not sure to what audience this actually applies. If you just want a laptop that can run the software you use, both are adequate as tools. The Framework's greater flexibility only applies to making changes to the tool itself, which doesn't matter if you didn't need to change it to suit your purposes. (And I say tha…

True, I was being a bit loose with my terminology. Some tools reward customization more than others. Machine tools and 3d printers are often used to produce parts, mods, and upgrades for themselves, for example. Screwdrivers aren't usually used to work on themselves though.

The principle I was trying to express is that a Framework (and Linux, for that matter) is a tool more like a mill or an older 3d printer from the RepRap era. You will get the most out of it if you spend time customizing it, altering it, upgrading it, understanding it, etc. A MacBook Neo is a tool more like a screwdriver or a power drill. It is immediately fit for its purpose, even if that purpose isn't quite as wide ranging.

It feels a bit odd to compare them directly across categories. The MacBook Neo feels like it should be compared to a Chromebook or a cheap Windows laptop, not a high-end Linux-first upgradable machine. That's like comparing a Dewalt power drill to a 1930s drill press. They can both drill a hole... but they're just not the same tool, and I (personally) wouldn't expect to use them in the same way.

Framework's hero image when you build the laptop is someone removing the keyboard to tinker with the machine.[1] If you don't intend to do that, then yeah, it's probably not the choice for you. If you are indifferent between macOS and Linux, then it's probably not the choice for you.

1: https://static.frame.work/8pbsbvkvt7p9nayyn32gzyg84spa

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#150
post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.

> Should they have supported PPC emulation forever

Yes.

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