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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

bbc.com

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#141

Post by madcaptenor »

cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#142

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

madcaptenor wrote: post #141
cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.

That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. They can follow the lead of Ireland and the arrangements for the land crossing with N.I.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#143

Post by 1986 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90
jgon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wrongthink". Lol man, if you think that taking money from a country whose head of state has recently said that they may need to forcibly annex your own country, and then using that money to illegally obtain the personal information of citizens so you can attempt to break your country apart is merely "wrongthink" then you need to completely recalibrate yourself. The really galling thing here is that as an American yo…

> you would absolutely never tolerate a country like, say, China, supporting, both monetarily and otherwise, a group agitating for California to leave the union No. But I don’t think we’d put people in jail for it unless they were ready to overthrow the government. (Hell, we didn’t even charge the actual people trying to violently overthrow the government with treason.)

That's not true, a number of Jan 6 people were convicted of seditious conspiracy, it's just that those convictions have now been vacated because the coup plotters have now ended up in charge regardless through other means.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#144

Post by [deleted] »

cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

[deleted]

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#145

Post by swader999 »

cf100clunk wrote: post #98

Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitut…

They are already separate first nations not joined to Canada or Alberta. I don't understand why Alberta not wanting to participate in Federalism anymore is an issue.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#146

Post by mpweiher »

madcaptenor wrote: post #141
cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.

With strong justification, as one of the reasons their earlier bid for secession from the UK was squashed was the argument that secession from the UK would also automatically kick them out of the EU.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#147

Post by joe_mamba »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #142
madcaptenor wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.

That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. They can follow the lead of Ireland and the arrangements for the land crossing with N.I.

>That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies.

To be fair, the failure is on the UK governance itself, not on Brexit. Other major EU economies like France and Germany have seen similar economic trajectories since 2020 as the post-Brexit UK, despite them still being in the EU. The post-2020 Covid and Ukraine crisis are difficult to isolate from Brexit to know if it's just Brexit alone or the world economic situation fucking everyone regardless since then.

Sure, Brexit probably didn't help, but looking at where Germany is now, I feel like UK handled the cold-turkey exit from the union far better than anyone expected.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#148

Post by dismalaf »

cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

> Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view.

This is complicated by the fact that First Nations themselves are highly stratified. They receive billions in dollars from the federal government with zero oversight so corruption is rampant.

So what happens if a majority of First Nations people want to separate but the chiefs in charge of a particular band don't?

It's like the pipeline issue in British Columbia... Bands and their elected officials voted to allow pipelines, then some "hereditary chiefs" associated with environmentalist groups convinced courts that their opinion carries the same weight as elected chiefs and the court blocked pipeline projects.

In Canada there's layers of un-elected government officials and activist judges who seem more concerned with getting federal funding (aka. kickbacks aka. bribes) than any sort of democratic notions.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#150

Post by marcusverus »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
nonethewiser wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of Democracy.

> This is part of Democracy It doesn’t need to be. 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.

> 10% of the population being able to put major policies to a referendum is a bit silly.

I think it's fantastic, actually. If the US had such a mechanism in place, we'd get term limits passed in a jiffy! In the absence of such a mechanism, the political class can simply refuse to act on popular measures. And while 10% might seem like a small number, the time, effort, and organization required to get 1/10th of the entire population to sign on for such a measure is actually a huge undertaking.

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