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Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

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Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#141
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I think cutting-edge LLM products obviously have what nearly anyone in 2020 would have called "artificial general intelligence". The shape of the intelligence frontier has turned out to be much more jagged than anyone at the time expected, so I can imagine reasonable objections from someone who has a specific, concrete benchmark of AGI that wasn't invented 6 months ago and isn't yet met. If someone just has a su…

> obviously If it was obvious I don't think there would be disagreement.

There is disagreement mostly because of deeply insecure people.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#143
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, my phrasing there was kind of poor: I didn't mean that he had made the overall AI situation worse, but rather that the AI he made was worse for the public than a hypothetical AI that was made with a deliberate eye to ethical or at least neutral behavior.

Ah, ok. I certainly agree with that. My question would be whether it's even possible for we humans as we are now to make an AI with a deliberate eye to ethical behavior. Sam Altman clearly is not someone who can do that (nor is Elon Musk, for that matter). But I'm not sure I know of anyone who is .

I mean, there are plenty of people with the ethical chops to do so, and, I daresay, plenty who combine that with the technical chops.

What's lacking is the money & power.

Having/obtaining enough of those to be able to compete with the likes of OpenAI and Google is, unfortunately, nearly guaranteed to result in a deeply ethically compromised person at best.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#144
post #114
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it is far more interesting, complicated, and useful to take his self-defense at face value—to interpret the many sins of OpenAI, and its competitors, as the result of a good-faith exercise in futility. What if we imagined that he did in fact set out to do good? And discovered—or, perhaps better, failed to discover—along the way that this was structurally impossible? But that is not what happened. It is neither…

> A people interested in good faith attempt to do good dont end up in Sam Altman position. I strongly disagree. Human history is full of examples of people who made good faith attempts to do good that backfired tremendously. A good faith desire to do good isn't enough: you also need to be in a domain where your beliefs and intuitions about what doing good actually is are reasonably trustworthy. And you need to have s…

> Human history is full of examples of people who made good faith attempts to do good that backfired tremendously

I meant it as "they don't end up as super rich powerful CEO able to get unimaginable amount of investments while getting idealists working for him for less money, because they trust ideals he breaks whenever it suits him". NONE of that happens by random or just by having good intentions. All of that is possible only if getting a lot of money and power are your primary goal.

And none of what happens with Sam Altman is "good intentions backfiring". Whatever little backslash he is experiencing has nothing to do with some good intentions having unpredictable consequences.

> this domain is not one where any human has reasonably trustworthy beliefs and intuitions about what doing good actually is.

Lying to people is known to not be good. And the category of "lying to protect a dissident from authoritarian oppression" exceptions does not apply here.

> And the current AI bubble shows that it's also a domain where nobody can get feedback from reality that pushes back when they start crossing certain lines.

Feedback from reality and "being able to get money" are two different things. You seem to be conflating them here. You can amass a lot of money and power by doing immoral, unethical and illegal things. In fact, doing those gives you distinct advantage over people who genuinely care about doing good.

> In other words, just as the article says, it's "structurally impossible" to do good in this domain, no matter what your intentions are, at least with the humans we have now.

It is structurally possible to do do good, including in this domain. It is just that your main goal must NOT be "creating a monopoly I can exploit".

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, is it true that they give back nothing? What about the compute? Pay checks? The value of the subscription you pay for? What about actual examples of things they have given back for free, like Whisper, which used to be SOTA and is still extremely useful. Occasional excellent research papers, particularly from anthropic? My point about "moral panic" is that it leads to statements like "giving back nothing"... whi…

I mean, I get your point but you're making me more and more disagreeing with it, hah. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but I'll entertain the response. Let's start with the fact that payroll and subscription tier can't be "giving back". That's just running a business. Whisper was a fig leaf when it was an open-everything era. Where are frontier weights now? Anthropic's papers describe how they did i…

Ok, fair point about the lizardbrain jealousy, the choice of wording there was needlessly antagonistic. In my defense, even though that point might seem reductive, I don't mean it to be. I'd say the only reason words like"fair", even exists is because of that basic emotional response. We dress it up in higher order concepts, but I genuinely think everything about fair distribution boils down to human emotional responses that in different contexts are given names such as "greed" or "jealousy". And the tribal environment IS the environment our brains are adapted to. I don't think it's necessarily reductive to point out the very foundation of where the impulses from our cognitive medium is coming from. It's the basis of pretty much everything about human society. From a sibling being pissed because he got one less slice of cake, to intellectual property law. It all boils down to the same emotional programming.

And I just want to be absolutely clear on one thing, I am in no way shape or form mocking science. I am part of academia, and I see science as the one most valuable thing humanity is doing. And I am not convinced at all that the capitalist way things are organized are the best overall, but this is mostly because it incentivises locking down knowledge behind intellectual property. Personally, I am for radical openness of knowledge, with no pay walls, and that the reward structures for producing knowledge should be separate from how that knowledge is being used. Even the publication system is too greed-based in my opinion, if it was up to me, every lab would live stream their work and publish every thought and idea as it happens (with the possible exception of biosecurity adjacent stuff), and 10-20% of taxes going to science would be international law.

This issue is not what I was discussing, what I perceived us to be discussing was whether or not Jonas Salk should have been pissed at the pharmaceutical companies profiting of his vaccine. As it happened, Jonas Salk was charitable, and believed in the openness of science, and understood the fact that someone actually had to produce and distribute the polio vaccine, and that this costs money. And as it happened, society had given this mandate to private companies, that operate with profit margins. And if him insisting on having a cut, if doing so would result in even a single additional person dying that wouldn't have otherwise, which it probably would have, then he didn't insist. Also he was too busy doing science, he even commented later that his fame was partially an unwelcome distraction from that.

To me, this is the ideal of a scientist. Someone who knows they stand on the shoulders of giants, and doesn't fret about the fact that the people who are standing on his are closer to the sun. The difference between Jonas Salk and everyone complaining about not being rewarded for training tokens, is that Jonas Salk made the choice to not patent his invention, and here the labs made the choice for everyone else. Jonas Salk and many others are charitable, but not everyone is, hence the complaining. But if everyone is forced to be Salk against their will, is that really so bad?

I see the LLM labs as the pharmaceutical companies, occupying a societal mandate to actually produce, and all the perils that come with it. But "giving back" is not part of that mandate, and unfortunate as that might be, that is not their fault. They are tasked with production, competition and progress, and that is already so expensive that they are struggling to meet demand.

And, you know, if redistribution truly is as easy as you say, at this thought my brain also produces a tinkle of anger at the injustice of it. And if I look for somewhere to direct that anger, I even have a name and a face! Look at Sam Altman, that smug supercar driving bastard, profiting of the hard work of Stackoverflow commenters everywhere. Eat him! Like, not in a gay way, but like in eat the rich! Out with the guillotines!

To me, that's my lizardbrain talking. The reality of our more complex non-tribal society is that the corporate structures we have created were not tasked with distributing rewards fairly, they were tasked with competing no matter the cost. And so successful companies do that, because the ones that don't disappear.

And like it or not, this methodology seems to work, on the whole. Even though it also offends my scientist sensibilities, it turns out that humans are greedy, and so incorporating that impulse into a structure that is limited to soft power is a good idea (unlike classic communism, where the same powers that produced products could also kill you). And it's not Sams fault that this is how it is. "Just running a business" is the reward structure society has created, and it's not part of Sam's job description to break that mold and start rewarding people he doesn't have to. In fact it might even be illegal for him to do so if it doesn't reward investors somehow also (like PR-wise).

And the overall fact is that the labs are doing what they need to do in order to produce something entirely new, that no one was even sure would be useful before they created it. And they are the representatives of the capitalist way of doing things, and if a publicly funded LLM undercuts them, that is fine. But maybe you do actually need a trillion dollars to make useful LLMs. Overall it's a good thing that someone is at least trying with funds, because there was no one lining up to buy 200k H100 for even the most prestigious of publicly funded academic institution, and certainly not for sending a check to all authors on arXiv.

And so overall, capitalism seems to me to be doing a fine job, and I pay my subscription fee gladly. And when my lizardbrain provides it's hateful opinion, I think of Jonas Salk, and it doesn't seem so bad after all.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#146
post #19

This is a weird fantasy among the literati that AI is a "scam", that we can "expose" them with lots of palace intrigue coverage and SBF or Elizabeth Holmes them away and then everything will be right in the world. Some of the best models are Chinese and Open-source and so-so good and Sam Altman is wholly irrelevant to them. Some folks are in for a very rude awakening.

"This is a fantasy among the literati that AI is a "scam", that we can "expose" them..." Who is "them" Is it "AI" that the literati are trying to "expose" or is it certain individuals "Some of the best models are Chinese and Open-source and so-so good and Sam Altman is wholly irrelevant ot them." Made with a small fraction of the budget available to Altman But is this article about "AI" models. Or is it about Altman…

Was 2

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#147
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously If it was obvious I don't think there would be disagreement.

There is disagreement mostly because of deeply insecure people.

"You only disagree with me because you are insecure"

This is not a convincing argument.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#148
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's really nobody for normal people to root for in this battle. I believe the reports that Sam Altman is an egomaniacal liar. But I haven't been privy to any of it other than seeing him hype his company's tech in a clearly dishonest manner. That's not great. I've seen Elon be an active piece of shit, white nationalist, conspiracy promoter, etc, for years. I don't root for Sam Altman. I root against Elon. In a d…

> I've seen Elon be an active piece of shit, white nationalist, conspiracy promoter, etc, for years. I don't root for Sam Altman. I root against Elon. A stopped clock is right twice a day Even Elon is sometimes right.

I know it can be very hard to admit because he’s broadly terrible, but he spent the last 20 years being right on some really, really big gambles, where many experts told us he wouldn’t.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#149
post #19

This is a weird fantasy among the literati that AI is a "scam", that we can "expose" them with lots of palace intrigue coverage and SBF or Elizabeth Holmes them away and then everything will be right in the world. Some of the best models are Chinese and Open-source and so-so good and Sam Altman is wholly irrelevant to them. Some folks are in for a very rude awakening.

> AI is a "scam" AI itself, the technology, isn't a scam but the promotion of it certainly reeks of a pyramid scheme / scam and the promises are pretty scammy in that they may be true at some point in time, but not today (one could say Tesla's FSD which some users paid for years ago, was/is a scam) and there is one thing that is incontestable: AI, as wielded by large companies today, is a highly destructive force. yo…

LLMs as “AI” is a scam, and a dead end.

They might be useful for some things in some situations and they are here to stay… for now. They won’t be the future though.

Re: Sam Altman Won in Court Against Elon Musk. But, We All Lost

#150
post #19

This is a weird fantasy among the literati that AI is a "scam", that we can "expose" them with lots of palace intrigue coverage and SBF or Elizabeth Holmes them away and then everything will be right in the world. Some of the best models are Chinese and Open-source and so-so good and Sam Altman is wholly irrelevant to them. Some folks are in for a very rude awakening.

> AI is a "scam" AI itself, the technology, isn't a scam but the promotion of it certainly reeks of a pyramid scheme / scam and the promises are pretty scammy in that they may be true at some point in time, but not today (one could say Tesla's FSD which some users paid for years ago, was/is a scam) and there is one thing that is incontestable: AI, as wielded by large companies today, is a highly destructive force. yo…

"promises are pretty scammy in that they may be true at some point in time"

You think the Frontier lab revenue reports are faked? [1]

[1]: https://cryptobriefing.com/anthropic-revenue-surge-10-billio...

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