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Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

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Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#141

Post by culopatin »

jcattle wrote: post #75
_puk wrote: post #42

>> In early 2022 Krajmalnik-Brown and colleagues patented a specific bacterial formulation and spun-off a commercial company called Gut-Brain Axis Therapeutics. I was a little surprised to see this. So the university researchers use time and money from the university to make a discovery, extending on previous published research, and then patent it and start their own for-profit? Excuse my ignorance, but is that how i…

This is how it works. Universities are doing research, they aren't doing products. If a commercially viable product comes out of their research it is far outside the scope of universities. Also keep in mind that most sciences usually don't produce commercially viable research (think social sciences, archeology, geography etc.) And as others said: how the universities gets a cut from the spin offs differs from univers…

“Universities” aren’t doing anything. Without the people that drive this they would just be admin people looking at each other and professors teaching to empty desks. Let’s not forget that often if a research was ran by X little group of people, once they move on, the people that come in have their own interests and it’s unlikely they’ll continue the project. How many unpublished papers sit because the student doing the research got a job, a life, doesn’t have time to continue and the PI can’t have some other student relearn the whole thing to finish it?

I understand the researchers lean on the infrastructure of the university, but I’m sure they paid their dues both in money payments to the university, depraved sleep and sweat. People need to eat, so I see nothing wrong with them putting their effort to work if that means the research continues and gets to the people, the university likely gets a cut as others mentioned.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#142

Post by human_person »

dahart wrote: post #119
SoftTalker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public funds the research so that it gets done in the first place. It's not a venture investment.

What do you mean? Research funding absolutely is an investment. Research that is productized is a venture, and the universities involved absolutely do invest in the venture, and sometimes see a handsome ROI. In terms of why the public funds research, your statement might be true, but isn’t addressing the concern that many in the public have raised before: the results of the research should be public, given that the r…

There are often a lot of steps between a discovery (or even a patent) and commercial viability. Patents make it easier for the companies to raise funding to do that work and move from theoretical or small scale to an actual product.

Also you could argue that patents are open access. The whole point of a patent is you give a complete summary of what the invention is and how to replicate it (with a level of detail that would allow someone knowledgeable in the field to recreate it) in exchange for a time limited legal moat.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#143

Post by simonklitj »

roywiggins wrote: post #18
simonklitj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source please? I’m seeing M75/F77 w/o learning disability, and M72/F70 w/ learning disability: https://www.autism.org.uk/learn/knowledge-hub/professional-p...

imho part of the communication problem is that a 6 year reduction actually is large, but it doesn't sound large. Smoking takes about 10 years off your life, and it's deadly in a very mechanical and understood way.

Yeah, I’m not disputing that, and it’s worth a lot of consideration and research. But, it’s quite far from 36 years.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#144

Post by senordevnyc »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #117
Aurornis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about the updates. However, news sites like this one aren’t combing through research to find things to update. They’re responding to PR outreach from companies. Did you notice there isn’t actually a link to a new publication? It’s only quotes from the company. They’re repeating PR material, not updates on the research. There’s a subtext here that isn’t immediately obvious without reading more from the company…

They aren't the only company doing this exact therapy. It isn't a good one. When I looked at preclinical for one of their competitors, that was the exact same thing, the issue was study design. Specifically, you are shoving something up an autistic kid's butt once a day or twice a day. They only did this to the placebo arm for 3 days, and only to healthy kids, whereas the treatment arm did this for 8 weeks. If I punc…

This seems a wild theory. So in your view, effectively abusing autistic kids results in a long-term, sustained, massive reduction in their autism symptoms? Highly skeptical on that, chief. I’d bet good money it goes the other way, and causing intentional pain and suffering in autistic kids would only worsen their symptoms.

I don’t even think I understand your proposed mechanism here. So these kids have this treatment multiple times a day, for eight weeks, and nothing they do during that time changes it, but then suddenly it stops, but they modulate their behavior for many months, what, just in case it happens again? When their behavior changes during the treatment had no effect on whether they keep getting the treatment? How does that make any sense?

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#145

Post by delecti »

SoftTalker wrote: post #110
smallnix wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the factor overlooked is the nasty but nutritional hospital food they got when receiving the transplant (assuming they got hospitalized).

Doesn't seem like something that would require an inpatient stay.

> [...] the treatment, which involved a bowel cleanse and daily transplants of fecal microbiota over a period of seven to eight weeks

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what the process of that daily transplant looked like, but I expect they ate a not insignificant amount of hospital food if there were 7-8 weeks of daily treatments.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#147

Post by Dwedit »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #137
user_7832 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how many kids are told to just "shut up and eat it" - and/or didn't have extreme pickiness but got DX'ed perhaps as an adult - I'd say there's a ton of research required to even suggest this as a plausible cause (even for a limited number of cases). It might make things worse, but I highly doubt it's causative .

DX?

Yeah, I see the word "DX'ed" and immediately think of getting clotheslined by Triple H.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#148

Post by imdsm »

rattray wrote: post #108

> Prior to the study, 83% of participants had "severe" autism. Two years later, only 17% were rated as severe, 39% as mild or moderate, and incredibly, 44% were below the cut-off for mild ASD. Pretty incredible if true!

I think the terminology of "incredible" is the operative word but I agree, if it could help, great. But I'm very skeptical. I find it hard to think that your gut biome can affect your brain so much that you struggle with social queues but are able to have an amazing memory.

But then I've met people not on "the spectrum" who have an amazing memory, such as a professor I recently met with who could remember the page numbers for certain phrases in books. Perhaps Asperger-level people just have the ability with the added challenges of autism?

who knows

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#149

Post by 1dom »

huhkerrf wrote: post #92
Balgair wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you think a fecal transplant was?

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I always assumed a fecal transplant went in the other door EDIT: looks like I was right, it can be done that way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant#Me...

No embarrassment, I thought the same. Feels like a far more sensible thought than fecal transplant via the mouth, for many reasons. Vindicating edit!

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#150

Post by Aurornis »

jtc331 wrote: post #130
doctorpangloss wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't the only company doing this exact therapy. It isn't a good one. When I looked at preclinical for one of their competitors, that was the exact same thing, the issue was study design. Specifically, you are shoving something up an autistic kid's butt once a day or twice a day. They only did this to the placebo arm for 3 days, and only to healthy kids, whereas the treatment arm did this for 8 weeks. If I punc…

Given there are cases of sudden onset autism being resolved with antifungals, it’s at least not implausible that fecal transplants could be effective too.

There are so many claims of autism being cured in a couple people with different drugs or supplements out there.

They’re always followed by thousands of self-experimenters where nobody can reproduce the result.

The explanation is almost always placebo effect. A parent or doctor is so convinced that they’ve found a cure that they change assume it worked, change their behavior toward the autistic person, and believe that a dramatic change has occurred.

This is also why the placebo arm of every autism study also shows improvement.

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