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Airport Security Is Killing Us

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Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#141

Post by grecy »

tadfisher wrote: post #127
grecy wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and just using the national average is useless for understanding anything about America. I agree. We're talking about understanding America compared to other countries, not things about America internally. >it's not like Americans aren't aware of the pros and cons of their own country I completely disagree with that statement. How many times have you heard someone say "Best country in the world" with no understandi…

Those are strawman arguments. Meeting uninformed Americans is not evidence that the entirety of the American populace is ignorant of their failings as a developed nation. For example, we are taught about slavery and the genocide of Native Americans in primary school. We dedicate an entire month to Black History because we are acutely aware of our status as one of the most institutionally racist countries on the plane…

Nothing I said was an argument, I was only stating my opinion.

An opinion, it seems, that is not uncommon.

http://blogs.reuters.com/bernddebusmann/2011/10/28/america-w...

> Please leave your preconceptions at the door when having a serious discussion.

Upon arriving in America in 2003, I had no preconceptions. I'm speaking from my experiences living and working in the country.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#142

Post by anu_gupta »

tokenadult wrote: post #24

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

> I say let loose the drones

You do realise that what the drone attacks are doing is to further radicalise people in Pakistan, don't you? A bit like what's happening in Gaza, what these attacks do is remove a few visible figureheads, kill people who aren't necessarily connected, and turn a good number of previously neutral or inactive people into sympathisers or more active combatants.

The idea of a relentless attack strategy is, with respect, utterly absurd and has about as much chance of real success as the War on Drugs. The rest of what you say makes much more sense. Communication is the key. Relentlessly communicate instead of relentlessly attack.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#144

Post by at-fates-hands »

"The attention paid to terrorism in the U.S. is considerably out of proportion to the relative threat it presents."

W O W. My jaw completely dropped when I read this sentence.

Considering we've averted 40 terrorist plots since 2001 this is pretty scary somebody would actually print such a statement. Keep in mind, those 40 are the ones we actually know about as well.

I'll continue to put up with the minor headaches as long as we continue to stop these plots before airplanes crash into skyscrapers or car bombs start exploding in times square.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#145

Post by jpxxx »

dalke wrote: post #138
jpxxx wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your thoroughness. I fear I am not focusing my argument well. Administrative search at airports is legal, yes. Consent is not required or relevant, yes. Bag checks and scans are mandated by law, yes. Magnetometer searches are protected by law, yes. Weapons searches are protected by law, yes. Carrying a meth pipe in your pocket is probably a bad idea, yes. I am very specifically arguing that modern physic…

The view that "They have not been ruled as constitutionally reasonable upon by the SCOTUS, and that until they are, they are forbidden by the fourth amendment." is incorrect. Were it true then every single new law or administrative action (of the federal government) would need to be reviewed by the Supreme Court before it could be applied. Instead, we have the court system to address these problems after the fact. We…

Yes, that is essentially my view. I do not believe the TSA's current procedures are constitutional. The court system has not corrected this instance of over-reach after ten years, and the TSA's policies continue to become more restrictive, intrusive, and degrading.

I do admit that declaring the TSA's current behavior as 'forbidden' is overzealous and legally inaccurate. I'm just an angry textbox and not a lawyer. :)

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#146

Post by mikeash »

tptacek wrote: post #82
michaelfeathers wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone feels that they can tell me what I consent to, they do not understand the meaning of the word consent.

You can not walk up to the security checkpoint at the airport. To see why this matters, imagine that the TSA could, as soon you bought a ticket, search you in your home. The police can actually do that, if they have a warrant.

If this really were the doctrine under which these searches were instituted, wouldn't there have to be a situation where the search procedures are fixed at the point where you bought your ticket, and they can't spring surprises on you by changing procedures between purchase and travel? Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but if the idea is that you implicitly consent when you sign up, then it seems like they should not then be able to change what you consented to later.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#147

Post by tadfisher »

grecy wrote: post #141
tadfisher wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are strawman arguments. Meeting uninformed Americans is not evidence that the entirety of the American populace is ignorant of their failings as a developed nation. For example, we are taught about slavery and the genocide of Native Americans in primary school. We dedicate an entire month to Black History because we are acutely aware of our status as one of the most institutionally racist countries on the plane…

Nothing I said was an argument, I was only stating my opinion. An opinion, it seems, that is not uncommon. http://blogs.reuters.com/bernddebusmann/2011/10/28/america-w... > Please leave your preconceptions at the door when having a serious discussion. Upon arriving in America in 2003, I had no preconceptions. I'm speaking from my experiences living and working in the country.

I can tell you that your experience will be vastly different depending on where you live and work. That's why it's hard to make meaningful statements about America as a whole, such as "Americans think they are number 1" or "You're more likely to get murdered if you move to America". Nobody throws a dart on a map and moves to America the country, they move to California or Virgina or Wisconsin.

Your supporting evidence cited a Fox News poll, which is probably the most biased and self-selecting demographic I can think of. That's one of our well-publicized failings, actually--the inherent biases of corporate media and the echo chamber of politics.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#148

Post by lambda »

philwelch wrote: post #136
lambda wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between "consent" and "putting up with because you want something else more." I generally have a greater need to fly than to avoid being felt up. This does not mean I consent to being felt up. The fact that the Supreme Court mistakes this for consent bothers me greatly.

That's like saying I consent to have the sandwich you made but I don't consent to give you money for it, therefore you the sandwich shop owner are robbing me. You analyze the cost-benefit and consent to the whole package. You can't pick and choose.

No, nothing like that. I do not have a constitutionally protected right to eat a sandwich. I do have one to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

Furthermore, with the sandwich, there are alternatives available to me. I can choose to go somewhere else that serves cheaper sandwiches, or make my own. There are some places that I just cannot get to without flying; and some for which getting there would take so long as to be completely impractical, thereby cutting me off from a large swath of possible activity if I do not "consent" to being touched in the nether bits.

Their argument is like saying that by walking into a fraternity, a woman consents to being groped. Hey, maybe they even put up a sign saying "we grope women who enter here." That argument does not make it consent.

Furthermore, you are not able to remove your consent once you reach the head of the line. At may airports, they subject only some passengers to having nude photos taken of them by x-ray (or groping if you don't consent to the backscatter). But at the point when you get to the head of the line and find out if you're lucky, you are not able to leave in order to avoid the search; they have arrested people for trying to do so.

There are certain ways to coerce people to create an illusion of consent; but that shouldn't be confused with actual consent.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#149

Post by dalke »

jpxxx wrote: post #145
dalke wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The view that "They have not been ruled as constitutionally reasonable upon by the SCOTUS, and that until they are, they are forbidden by the fourth amendment." is incorrect. Were it true then every single new law or administrative action (of the federal government) would need to be reviewed by the Supreme Court before it could be applied. Instead, we have the court system to address these problems after the fact. We…

Yes, that is essentially my view. I do not believe the TSA's current procedures are constitutional. The court system has not corrected this instance of over-reach after ten years, and the TSA's policies continue to become more restrictive, intrusive, and degrading. I do admit that declaring the TSA's current behavior as 'forbidden' is overzealous and legally inaccurate. I'm just an angry textbox and not a lawyer. :)

I agree with you. However, using false reasoning probably doesn't help. While it may help vent your frustrations, it may also make others thinks that your views are ungrounded in reality.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#150

Post by jordanb »

grecy wrote: post #111
sneak wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland is 5.3 million people. Norway is 5 million people. Sweden is 9.5 million people. Michigan is 9.8 million people. California is 37.6 million people. New York is 19.4 million people Germany is 81.7 million people. Please keep scale in mind.

Why does scale have anything to do with a per capita statistic?

Hong Kong's murder rate is 0.2 per 100,000. Iceland and Singapore both have a rate of 0.3.

Clearly Western Europe is a horrible, brutal, violent place against which the inhabitants of these countries should be clicking their tongues.

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