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NetHack 5.0.0

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Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#141

Post by boomlinde »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #108

This is going to seem either beyond idiotic (which it may be) or a troll (which it is not) but: is this game actually fun? Like, if you have zero nostalgia or anything, and your evaluation of it is based solely on what it is, is it something a person in their 20s would want to play? Is it fun in a different way than, say, Dwarf Fortress is fun? (Haven't played DF but I think I understand why people do.) Would really…

"Is this fun" and "is it something a person in their 20s would want to play" are entirely different questions.

There are people who absolutely thrive doing the things NetHack rewards you for in the long term: perseverance, patience, planning, resourcefulness, risk management, strategizing, analyzing and learning systems... I feel like it has a timeless and ageless appeal to a particular kind of player and has never been quite palatable to mainstream audiences. If you like NetHack today you probably do it for the same reasons you would 30 years ago.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#142

Post by Dove »

MattCruikshank wrote: post #103

So, if I understand correctly, the goal is to enjoy dying thousands of times? Or, to give up and read online how to play? Or some of both?

"Every time I sat down to play [the game] it was like walking into a dark shed full of rakes, treading on one, and getting blatted in the face... and then I'd go back into the shed, thinking maybe it was just the one rake, when blat in the face again. So I thought, I'll just keep tanking the rakes and maybe I'll become psychotically in love with being rake-faced. And that's kind of what happened."

Yahtzee was talking about Dark Souls, but it applies. (Vigorously NSFW, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=STrYyhEwkbY )

That said, I think Nethack is best experienced with liberal and unapologetic spoiler use.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#143

Post by handoflixue »

abustamam wrote: post #131
appreciatorBus wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, imo spoilers only spoil experiences for people who take media too seriously. When I consider watching a movie, one of the first things I do is read a complete plot summary, including the ending. When I do this and no longer want to watch the movie, in my mind, that’s not a sign that any experience was spoiled, but rather that it just wasn’t very interesting to begin with. Conversely, I have played Nethack on and…

I play a lot of experimental games where not knowing what the plot is is the point of the game. Doki Doki Literature Club is one such game. The experience is the point, not the plot. Many films are meant to be experienced, not just read or watched. Otherwise what's the point of a movie when you can just read a screen play? Or what's the point of a screen play when you can just read a synopsis?

1) NetHack is not one of those games

2) If you want to avoid spoilers, you should probably avoid discussion threads about the subject, because people will often discuss their experiences in such threads

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#144

Post by seanhunter »

As someone who hasn’t played for 20 years+ seems weird that they worry about spoilers in the release notes - back when I played literally the only way to learn certain game mechanics etc (eg the e-word) was to read the source code, and when you did that you found a bunch of things that were incredibly overpowered to the point of basically trivializing a lot of the game. (It’s been a long while but I seem to remember discovering very easy ways to find very powerful weapons and armour).

It seems to me that for what I was after at the time, DCSS is actually a better nethack than nethack is in that the game is more discoverable and fair and less arbitrary.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#145

Post by abustamam »

handoflixue wrote: post #143
abustamam wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play a lot of experimental games where not knowing what the plot is is the point of the game. Doki Doki Literature Club is one such game. The experience is the point, not the plot. Many films are meant to be experienced, not just read or watched. Otherwise what's the point of a movie when you can just read a screen play? Or what's the point of a screen play when you can just read a synopsis?

1) NetHack is not one of those games 2) If you want to avoid spoilers, you should probably avoid discussion threads about the subject, because people will often discuss their experiences in such threads

1. It doesn't have to be for the experience of the plot to be important.

2. Fair point but with a game like nethack I'd say a majority of folks are interested in discussing the development of nethack without necessarily discussing the plot. HN has no concept of spoiler tags nor topiced threads so it's not really easy to contain the discussion per-thread.

Besides even if you don't care about spoilers, a lot of people do, regardless of your thoughts on how you personally like to experience media.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#146

Post by handoflixue »

abustamam wrote: post #145
handoflixue wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) NetHack is not one of those games 2) If you want to avoid spoilers, you should probably avoid discussion threads about the subject, because people will often discuss their experiences in such threads

1. It doesn't have to be for the experience of the plot to be important. 2. Fair point but with a game like nethack I'd say a majority of folks are interested in discussing the development of nethack without necessarily discussing the plot. HN has no concept of spoiler tags nor topiced threads so it's not really easy to contain the discussion per-thread. Besides even if you don't care about spoilers, a lot of people…

I actually tend to live a remarkably spoiler free life, but that's mostly by avoiding threads that would give spoilers on things I care about.

Like, it's fine to care about spoilers, you just can't expect a random community that doesn't even have the concept of spoiler tags to accommodate your desire. Doubly so since that desire is competing with the desire of others to discuss the topic.

I'm also not even sure where you'd draw the distinction with a game like NetHack - how do you discuss a change on how to acquire Excalibur without discussing how to acquire Excalibur, or spoiling that you can reliably acquire it?

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#147

Post by vintermann »

tetha wrote: post #61
foresto wrote: post #15

Last time I played, after many close calls, I finally got my hands on the amulet. Knowing that the journey back to daylight was likely to be at least as dangerous as the way I had come, I took a breath, saved, and set the game aside. That was about seventeen years ago. I still have the save file. Today's announcement got me excited about the prospect of finally finishing my game, until I saw this: > Existing saved ga…

I also have a Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup with my first 3 runes around somewhere. I'm aware I will probably lose it, but I'm also anxious to touch it. Maybe I should just get myself some good coffee tomorrow and get over with it. Biggest learning of that save is also how careful and defensive you have to play if you want to consistently get further.

DCSS has also changed so much, it's hardly the same game anymore. It's maybe a better game in many ways, but it's not the game I spent time getting to know and getting good at.

Maybe an early example of "forever games" like Minecraft which just keep getting expanded forever and move ever further from the game you knew.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#148

Post by quickthrowman »

seanhunter wrote: post #144

As someone who hasn’t played for 20 years+ seems weird that they worry about spoilers in the release notes - back when I played literally the only way to learn certain game mechanics etc (eg the e-word) was to read the source code, and when you did that you found a bunch of things that were incredibly overpowered to the point of basically trivializing a lot of the game. (It’s been a long while but I seem to remember…

I started with DCSS and I played Nethack a few times. After reading some of the spoilers and realizing what I would have to memorize to win the game, I stopped playing it.

DCSS focused on tactical encounters which I enjoy a lot more than reading up what word to inscribe on the floor to make myself invincible or whatever.

I still enjoy the idea of Nethack, it’s very clever and incredibly deep, it’s just not for me.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#149

Post by vintermann »

handoflixue wrote: post #143
abustamam wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play a lot of experimental games where not knowing what the plot is is the point of the game. Doki Doki Literature Club is one such game. The experience is the point, not the plot. Many films are meant to be experienced, not just read or watched. Otherwise what's the point of a movie when you can just read a screen play? Or what's the point of a screen play when you can just read a synopsis?

1) NetHack is not one of those games 2) If you want to avoid spoilers, you should probably avoid discussion threads about the subject, because people will often discuss their experiences in such threads

I agree Nethack is not one of those games. People always pretended it was, though. They called "spoilers" what would be called documentation in most games. No one didn't use them (the "unspoiled" win mentioned elsewhere in the thread was a stretch even if you take them at their word). It was supposed to be theoretically possible to find out core game features from e.g. random rumors, but that was completely hypothetical - I'm pretty sure at no point in Nethack's development was it ever playtested with new players.

Re: NetHack 5.0.0

#150

Post by [deleted] »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #14

Amazing. I was never any good at Nethack. I think I just get impatient. I could regularly get a bit past Medusa but anything past that definitely involved save scumming. I was always a little jealous of the folks who could ascend regularly. But not jealous enough to, like, do anything about it. Nethack's always been amazing for the feeling of "the devs thought of everything." I wonder how well that feeling holds up t…

[deleted]
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