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Clay PCB Tutorial

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Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#141

Post by ErroneousBosh »

jna_sh wrote: post #102

Got to take part in this when they ran it at Creative Coding Utrecht. They had brought a variety of clays for us to use, most wild dug from forests in Austria. But they also had some clay from deep beneath Vienna that they got from (iirc) some new metro digging. It was a lot of fun and the end artefact is very pleasing.

> But they also had some clay from deep beneath Vienna that they got from (iirc) some new metro digging

U5 Matzleinsdorferplatz, in der nahe Gudrunstrasse? I've been down in those tunnels for a visit, they're extremely cool. Unfortunately we weren't allowed to take any photos.

It's weird seeing what's going to be the bit where the platform is, when they fill the big hole in with concrete, and the sloping-up tunnel that'll be the stairs and escalator, but it's all just flat grey shotcrete. It's like looking at a clay render of it before the textures and bump maps go on ;-)

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#142

Post by oulipo2 »

fwipsy wrote: post #132
oulipo2 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, since he's making it clear that he, in fact, doesn't: "I truly don’t understand what the hope to gain from self-classifying this is “feminist”."

The rest of the comment shows that they understand the need to represent women as equally professional to men in tech. The first line is just a polite way to say "I think this is counterproductive" while leaving the door open for discussion. You may disagree (and I do,) but at least engage with the point they actually made.

It has nothing to do with "equally professional to men in tech". It has to do with the fact that the power dynamics in tech are inherently anti-feminist, and they recognize that, and try to fight against it. You can read about it here:

> Feminist theories of technology also imagine technologies that do not (yet) exist, and that would be desirable and liberating. They are engaged in writing diverse code to reflect different bodies and minds, and transforming developer-user dynamics to return autonomy to those who inhabit these technologies. They are invested in creating friendly ways of managing our information, communication and memory-related needs.

https://digitalfreedomfund.org/why-we-need-feminist-technolo...

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#143

Post by atoav »

itsdesmond wrote: post #123
atoav wrote: post #78

As an electonics labs person I applaude all efforts to mske our practise more renewable. However this is a circuit that I would have wired without PCB at all, directly point to point, wire to pin. Better than a greenwashed alternative is to avoid using msterial that is not necessary. Yet one also had to consider the whole lifetime of a product: ten throwaway circuits versus one very durable one etc.

They’re investigating “can circuits be produced from”, not asserting “this is a better medium for this exact circuit”. It is a tutorial on creating clay PCBs at all, a demo of the technique.

Yes. And thus using a circuit that has the complexity of a circuit one would put onto a circuit board would be a good demonstration. E.g. showcasing vias and other circuit board technologies.

Understandably the first step is to start simple, but that is the essence of my criticism: Too many of these projects become viral hits that stop making any progress after the first symbolic success. Cynics would say these projects all too often stop exactly at the point where the actual challenges start.

And as someone who cares about the environment, I am not sure how I feel about a hundred symbolic projects that go nowhere. Are the substrates of PCBs really the problem? What if people have to throw entire devices with mud PCBs into the bin after a year because the mud PCB couldn't handle the vibration and humidity? Is that environmentally sound?

I'd love to someone really explore alternative PCB materials. But that means living in reality and compsring the whole lifecycle of the result to existing technologies. A automotive tire made of mud is also environmentally sound. It is just that it falls apart after half a block.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#144

Post by pjc50 »

chasil wrote: post #15

I am wondering what of this could be used in high-volume industrial processes. "We had the privilege of spending two days with this skilled craftsman, learning how to identify and collect the clay, and how to model and fire it using old, dry branches collected from the forest ground."

I think they're sufficiently opposed to high-volume industrial processes as a concept that they would select techniques that cannot be scaled in that way. Part of the art, I suppose.

Edit: ages ago, I thought of but never finished writing down an idea I had for an "anti-masterwork" for electronics. A traditional "masterwork" demonstrates knowledge of the craft by using standard techniques extremely well. So an "anti-masterwork" would demonstrate knowledge by using nonstandard techniques, or deliberately violating best practices, within the constraint of still having to actually work. A bit of a joke or troll.

One of the subideas was "design against manufacturing". Nonreproducible techniques that have to be done by hand. I considered glass and wood but this ceramic would have fit right in.

With a bit more aesthetic consideration you could even make electronic jewelery using ceramic and glass.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#145

Post by pjc50 »

deadeye wrote: post #14

Interesting project but I can't tell, is the language used supposed to be satire?

It's a bit Sokal Hoax, in that you have to be quite familiar with this kind of thing to be able to distinguish it from satire. But a lot of "artist's statements" are written that way. If you go into a museum and find an incomprehensible objet d'art with a small explanatory plaque next to it, the plaque will be written like this.

In a way it's no different from LinkedIn or a VC pitch, the need to hit certain phrases to appeal to the audience.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#146

Post by pjc50 »

lucid-dev wrote: post #40

New generations have new language and are attempting to define themselves through their usage of certain terminology and re-framing of words (Arduino -> Arduina). This isn't satire and it doesn't have to be dismissed. While I don't find increasing the definition and perceived uniqueness of one's personality and identity is necessarily a positive social thing, it's pretty much the most common thing in today's world -…

> it's easy to find out the date that oil (petroleum) will run out

No it isn't! This can be estimated, but things can change rapidly. We don't even know when the Strait of Hormuz will reopen, which makes a 5% difference to global production.

Trying to put a precise date on it reminds me of the clergyman who came up with a "precise" date for the creation of the Earth of 4004 BC, by analysing the biblical genealogies.

Nor is it a hard cutoff. Each individual well is like a tap that gradually gets slower and slower, and more and more mixed with water. They are almost always shut off with some oil left in, but exactly how much depends on the oil price at that time.

> a high tech utopia Earth will not be

There are eight billion people on Earth. We're dependent on antibiotics, global food transport, and Haber nitrogen. It's either a high-tech utopia or a much, much smaller number; and we'd better hope that's achieved by falling birth rates and not by one of the other routes.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#148

Post by pjc50 »

belval wrote: post #61

For me the next step should explore how to cut out the firing part of the process altogether, pottery looks cool but the process requires a lot of energy. Perhaps it could be done on a piece of wood planed by hand? You can get those fairly flat. Then use copper tape (or laminate your own copper really) with some homemade adhesive? Actually now that I think about it you could just make pine rosin (pine resin + alcohol…

Dredged from memory is the "phenolic" circuit board, popular before about 1990.

https://picamfg.com/pcb-base-materials/ "FR-2: Phenolic Resin with Paper Reinforcement" / https://epra.eu/en/sustainability/bio-sourced-and-bio-based-... - you could make an entirely natural-derived paper+resin circuit board, with high dimensional stability, and validated by real use.

The only downside is it's not inherently fire resistant.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#149

Post by jand »

atoav wrote: post #143
itsdesmond wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re investigating “can circuits be produced from”, not asserting “this is a better medium for this exact circuit”. It is a tutorial on creating clay PCBs at all, a demo of the technique.

Yes. And thus using a circuit that has the complexity of a circuit one would put onto a circuit board would be a good demonstration. E.g. showcasing vias and other circuit board technologies. Understandably the first step is to start simple, but that is the essence of my criticism: Too many of these projects become viral hits that stop making any progress after the first symbolic success. Cynics would say these proje…

> Too many of these projects become viral hits that stop making any progress after the first symbolic success. Cynics would say these projects all too often stop exactly at the point where the actual challenges start.

What can you do to ensure the "real work" can actually be done, more precise paid for? Well, you could demo early in hope to attract coins. Maybe that is happening here.

Re: Clay PCB Tutorial

#150

Post by tripzilch »

pjc50 wrote: post #144
chasil wrote: post #15

I am wondering what of this could be used in high-volume industrial processes. "We had the privilege of spending two days with this skilled craftsman, learning how to identify and collect the clay, and how to model and fire it using old, dry branches collected from the forest ground."

I think they're sufficiently opposed to high-volume industrial processes as a concept that they would select techniques that cannot be scaled in that way. Part of the art, I suppose. Edit: ages ago, I thought of but never finished writing down an idea I had for an "anti-masterwork" for electronics. A traditional "masterwork" demonstrates knowledge of the craft by using standard techniques extremely well. So an "anti-…

I love that idea (the "anti-masterwork")
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