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Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

nytimes.com

141–150 of 160 posts

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#141
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian policy on guns (princially unifying existing gun regulation across all of Australia including Queensland, Tasmania, and the Territories) had a significant impact on mass shooting, individual shooting, gun suicides, etc throughout the 30 years following the Port Arthur massacre. During the period legitimate gun ownership (people with guns) has sharply declined in larger urban areas, remained about the same…

Australia doesn't have the Second Amendment. In the US, any gun legislation that could possibly be effective at eliminating gun violence would also by definition be unconstitutional, since there is no way to prevent gun violence to any significant degree without infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. And a Constitutional amendment to repeal or change the 2A is existentially impossible as it woul…

Nor does the UK, nor most of the 190+ countries about the globe.

This is tangential to whether gun policy can work or not.

> In the US, any gun legislation that could possibly be effective at eliminating gun violence would also by definition be unconstitutional,

And yet many US states already have gun legislation ... and arguably more regulations and fiddly shit than Australia does.

What the US lacks is the ability to have clean, simple, uniform gun laws across all states AND uniform _enforcement_ of such laws.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#142
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia doesn't have the Second Amendment. In the US, any gun legislation that could possibly be effective at eliminating gun violence would also by definition be unconstitutional, since there is no way to prevent gun violence to any significant degree without infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. And a Constitutional amendment to repeal or change the 2A is existentially impossible as it woul…

Nor does the UK, nor most of the 190+ countries about the globe. This is tangential to whether gun policy can work or not. > In the US, any gun legislation that could possibly be effective at eliminating gun violence would also by definition be unconstitutional, And yet many US states already have gun legislation ... and arguably more regulations and fiddly shit than Australia does. What the US lacks is the ability t…

>What the US lacks is the ability to have clean, simple, uniform gun laws across all states AND uniform _enforcement_ of such laws.

Yes. that is what would be unconstitutional. States can have their own gun laws but the Federal government is restrained by the Second Amendment. Mostly it has to abuse the Commerce Clause to justify its ability to regulate guns as interstate commerce.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#143
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nor does the UK, nor most of the 190+ countries about the globe. This is tangential to whether gun policy can work or not. > In the US, any gun legislation that could possibly be effective at eliminating gun violence would also by definition be unconstitutional, And yet many US states already have gun legislation ... and arguably more regulations and fiddly shit than Australia does. What the US lacks is the ability t…

>What the US lacks is the ability to have clean, simple, uniform gun laws across all states AND uniform _enforcement_ of such laws. Yes. that is what would be unconstitutional. States can have their own gun laws but the Federal government is restrained by the Second Amendment. Mostly it has to abuse the Commerce Clause to justify its ability to regulate guns as interstate commerce.

So, it's a failure of the US ability to implement policy, not a failure of enacted policy to be able to make a difference.

Luckily, it's an Ammedment that is subject to interpretation, change, and/or removal.

Recall that US history has examples of Ammendments being both added and removed, that recently the Federalists saw fruit of a 30 year long campaign to stack the judicial pipeline, and the US landed on the moon.

The country is capable of difficult things, it's a matter of finding the will and making the grind.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that you feel better now. And I am very happy that you got help. Mental help is never a cost for society, it is an investment.

> Mental help is never a cost for society At the risk of going “No True Scotsman” on this assertion, I would point out that providing such services has been increasingly lucrative and it is a growth industry where new providers are arising constantly, and existing ones are expanding vigorously. That means that the space for fraud, waste, and abuse is gigantic. I have, on occasion, perused the FOIA lists of de-license…

The vultures circling taxpayer money are active in all areas where there's blind spending without oversight. This has been known since forever.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#145
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fact I've noticed is that suicide rates are higher in areas with lower population density. For example, Alaska's suicide rate is 4x what New York's rate is. Perhaps just human connection, even momentarily, is enough to break the pattern of behavior that has lead to the ideation. Also worth noting that suicide rates among the elderly are higher than they are for anyone other than teens. If you have someone you love…

The more likely explanation is guns. Gun ownership tends to be higher in rural areas because of a mixture of culture, politics, utility and laws. Only 14% of adults in New York State have guns compared to 59% in Alaska. Having a quick, easy and painless way to end your life right on your nightstand makes it a lot more likely that a bolt of suicidal urges turn into action. https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/gun-…

Then overlay a map of gun ownership rates over the suicide rates and see if you see the same correlation.

This isn't an intuitive point. There's actual data showing the correlation I've described.

Something you'll also want to explain is why the suicide rate for teens is 3x higher than for adults and why elderly is 2x higher than adults. Or why more than 1/3 of suicides don't involve a gun at all. Or why Japan's suicide rate is so much higher despite having no gun ownership rights.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#146

gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/22/science/988-youth-suicide... I bet there is so much more we could do to reduce suicides, which are a massively big problem. I wish we paid as much attention to suicide as we do to very rare mass shootings, which kill a tiny fraction of the people.

So yeah, why not? Choosing to end thyself IS the penultimate "my body, my choice". We have immediate "no money, lost job, destitute" (insert temporary issue). And we have chronic, everpresent, or terminal problem. We could fix the first one, but socially we choose not to. Either way, we should have the right of bodily autonomy. I guess the american answer is, for a suicide help call, show up with pigs with guns, and…

> Choosing to end thyself IS the penultimate "my body, my choice".

If that’s the penultimate, what’s the ultimate?

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#147
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how we try to prevent people from shooting themselves by sending people with guns to help them People with guns are still people. Having anyone there will reduce harm in more cases than it escalates. Suicide is usually an impulse a lonely person who is otherwise perfectly sane carries out in the absence of intervention.

> People with guns are still people No one is questioning that police are people. > Having anyone there will reduce harm in more cases than it escalates That was never the point I was arguing against. I was arguing against which people are there. > Suicide is usually an impulse a lonely person who is otherwise perfectly sane carries out in the absence of intervention. I do not believe that in the slightest. There is…

> There is an array of causes from physical illnesses, mental illnesses, spiritual beliefs, political beliefs, to even cultural beliefs. Sure, loneliness can contribute in some cases

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that loneliness is often a major proximate cause of suicide. An interruption–even something as jarring as the cops at the door–can snap someone out of a pattern which, if left alone, can end in tragedy.

A mental-health professional, or friend or family member, checking in would be ideal. But that isn't always possible. In the absence of better options, a cop checking in is better than nothing.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#148
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People with guns are still people No one is questioning that police are people. > Having anyone there will reduce harm in more cases than it escalates That was never the point I was arguing against. I was arguing against which people are there. > Suicide is usually an impulse a lonely person who is otherwise perfectly sane carries out in the absence of intervention. I do not believe that in the slightest. There is…

> There is an array of causes from physical illnesses, mental illnesses, spiritual beliefs, political beliefs, to even cultural beliefs. Sure, loneliness can contribute in some cases Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that loneliness is often a major proximate cause of suicide. An interruption–even something as jarring as the cops at the door–can snap someone out of a pattern which, if left alone, can end in tragedy. A me…

What does loneliness have to do with being physically close to a person? Lonely people walk among other people all the time.

Someone asking if they would like a receipt, and “have a good day”, ought to snap someone out of it just the same with this logic.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#149

A while ago I was seriously sick + in a hospital (for a few months). The doctors told me that I won't be able to resume my regular job (software engineer). At the same time I was in a lot of pain – unable to sit, walk, stand. It was not really clear how it all would end. I got deeply depressed and just wanted to die. The pain was just too much - even with controlled pain medication in a hospital setup. I called the G…

I hope that you feel better now. And I am very happy that you got help. Mental help is never a cost for society, it is an investment.

> it is an investment.

Everything is a capital metaphor.

Re: Youth Suicides Declined After Creation of National Hotline

#150
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social worker in question forced confinement on children, when I was one, and got to experience her own tactics firsthand. Her reaction to her own tactics was indeed to quit the job entirely, the second she got loose. Of course, the same courtesy was NOT afforded to the children there. They got locked up, yelled and screamed for hours, then were simply locked up again. There was no exit, other than violence. Whic…

> The social worker in question forced confinement on children… Sure. Because they needed it. (And there are a lot of social workers at much lower acuities than forensic psych wards for violent kids.) Kids don't like getting vaccinations, either, but stabbing the pediatrician in revenge is clearly not the solution to that. The pediatrician doesn't need a polio booster.

This is not a forensic psych ward. The only way to get into those is to commit an actual serious crime, which is pretty hard to do before you're 18 years old.

This environment is referred to as "closed", sometimes even "semi-closed". There's also "open" and "semi-open", but almost everyone runs away. You see, social workers' theories ... don't work. Don't help. And kids realize this pretty quickly. The only kids you see there are the ones they've suddenly kidnapped for 2 weeks to "closed", scared into behaving for a while. This works the first time, and kids that have nowhere to go at all (whom they kick to the sidewalk on their 18th birthday. Best hope you don't have your final school exams after your birthday ... because how will you ever do that?). The vast majority of kids are there (in open or closed) because they refuse social worker's help. This can mean getting placed by a judge in foster care and running away. This can mean systematically not turning up for "help sessions" at school (that was my "crime"). This can mean avoiding "in-house" help. In general kids get locked up because they make a social workers' job impossible. Which is ironic, because that is also the only way out.

And social workers lie. They are judged by how many kids they "helped" and so if the situation becomes truly untenable they send you home. You see, they lie you're cured. The advantage is that it's pretty hard to get punished for doing things wrong there. So you eventually realize that making the situation totally untenable is the way to get out. First thing I tried was to simply fight directly. I started fighting sports at age 3, and they tried to attack. I knocked 3 of them out and they decided to wait me out, which succeeded after more than a day. Next I decided the best tactic is to simply wait for a situation to turn violent. You won't have to wait long. And then figure out how to prevent social workers from helping each other, from fixing the situation, making everything go as bad as possible, without being even remotely responsible. Stand in the way. Make them trip. Close the right door at exactly the wrong time. For that they started to try to bribe me (e.g. a key, access to the "library" (a few dozen comicbooks and one programming book I brought. Of course no computer. I still know that book by hard) including at night, access to the kitchen). Then I figured out how to disappear, with a girl, for a few days. Just because these buildings are closed doesn't mean there are no places to hide. Social workers are total morons. We came back when we ran out of food. I was home before dinner.

The only case I heard of where a kid was sent to forensic psych from this was one that put a plastic utensil (he broke it in two and used the sharp edge) through the throat of a fresh intern. She lived, btw. For that, he was sent there for 2 weeks. They made some excuse for sending him home after 2 weeks, something to the tune of "it's not meants as a punishment and should not be used like that".

All social workers' help is a punishment.

Oh, and that's not because they don't want to keep kids in forensic psych. But the whole point of social workers' infrastructure is to provide maximum comfortable jobs for social workers. The whole system doesn't work. I've never met anyone who was actually helped (of course everyone lies to get out, or even to get back in as a social worker themselves). Forensic psych is ridiculously expensive per kid (> 200k per kid per year), and so kills jobs for social workers. Oh, and because you can imagine how violent that is, nobody wants to work in a place with kids that were probably pretty bad before social workers inflicted their torture on them (sorry "help them"). Even in "closed", kids learn to attack, first psychologically, then physically social workers literally before they've said a word to them. Because otherwise ...

I'm pretty used to "opinions" like yours. People have no idea how social workers actually do things, and they don't want to. If you have a discussion like this, nearly always people don't even realize this even exists.

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