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Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

nature.com

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Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#141

Post by matt-attack »

rolph wrote: post #131
greazy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct. Two bird populations living in the same locale but divided by a mountain range therefore not naturally breeding with each other would classify as a different species, even if they could breed with each other. So your question is hard to answer.

"The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct." speciation is reproductive incompatability. geographic isolation is more like founder effect than speciation.

That sounds like bunk. Has someone really tried to get every suspiciously similar but distinct species to mate? If I go and get these two to mate are they really going to delete one of the species:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamira_oriole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_oriole

Just Think it logically there are millions and millions of animal species alone. The number of combinations is astronomical. Did someone really try out each combination? It’s silly. Of course not.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#142

Post by adrianN »

masfuerte wrote: post #110
ralfd wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average european person and the average east asian person are a little bit different genetically, but way less different than any two real europeans or two east-asians are to one another. This is always touted as an “racism-is-not-only-immoral-it-is-scientifically-wrong” argument, but it is a fallacy. Example: The average height (a trait with very high heritability) of Dutch men is 6’0 feet (183 cm) and the ave…

A few hundred years ago Europeans were very much shorter too. The Chinese have increased in height within just the last couple of generations. In both cases this isn't because their genes changed, it's because their diets changed. Diet also explains the difference between the Netherlands and the Philippines.

Are people of Philippine decent that are born and raised in the Netherlands statistically the same height as native Dutch?

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#143

Post by green_wheel »

like_any_other wrote: post #137
pegasus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me, that we divide other animals based on some of the most minor of phenotypic expressions It might seem like that to you, but you'd be wrong. Taxonomy prioritizes genetic distance and reproductive isolation over superficial visual traits that humans happen to find striking. While phenotypic variations like skin color or facial structure are highly visible, they represent a microscopic fraction of the over…

> Taxonomy prioritizes genetic distance [..] Two humans from opposite sides of the planet are generally more genetically similar to each other than two chimpanzees from the same patch of forest. Do you have a source? I've tried looking in the past, but couldn't find good "genetic distance" metrics that could be compared between humans and other species.

The metric is called fixation index

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#144

Post by tptacek »

green_wheel wrote: post #140

It seemed unlikely that ancestral populations had so many physiological differences, but not cognition. This seems like the last piece to compliment observed IQ differences between groups and levels of civilizational attainment.

I don't understand how that argument could even work. Since the dawn of recorded history there has been (1) wildly varying levels of civilizational achievement depending on the era and (2) not nearly enough time for meaningful selection effects to be the cause of those variations.

We could get into the reasons why physiological differences ("height") behave differently in genetics than behavioral differences ("cognition"), but we don't even reach that --- first you have to explain to me how genetic advantages are the reason European-extracted people are so successful now, but weren't in play when we were getting our asses handed to us by the Abbasids and Tang Dynasty Chinese.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#145

Post by squibonpig »

green_wheel wrote: post #140

It seemed unlikely that ancestral populations had so many physiological differences, but not cognition. This seems like the last piece to compliment observed IQ differences between groups and levels of civilizational attainment.

I saw in the article that male pattern baldness became way less common over the studied period. Their definition of "way less" was 1-2%. Even if it wasn't the case that, lacking natural weapons, generalizable cognitive faculties are highly advantageous for our species regardless of factors like climate, there's not any real reason to figure cognitive changes would occur way faster than the 1-2% reduction in MPB. So is the argument that some large scale population has a mean IQ that differs by 1-2%? That's vastly less than the impact of poverty or childhood nutrition.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#146

Post by rolph »

matt-attack wrote: post #141
rolph wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The definition of what constitutes a species is a human construct." speciation is reproductive incompatability. geographic isolation is more like founder effect than speciation.

That sounds like bunk. Has someone really tried to get every suspiciously similar but distinct species to mate? If I go and get these two to mate are they really going to delete one of the species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamira_oriole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_oriole Just Think it logically there are millions and millions of animal species alone. The number of combinations is astronomical. Did…

perhaps you could explain why there is more than one type of organism on this planet.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#147

Post by EnPissant »

tptacek wrote: post #144
green_wheel wrote: post #140

It seemed unlikely that ancestral populations had so many physiological differences, but not cognition. This seems like the last piece to compliment observed IQ differences between groups and levels of civilizational attainment.

I don't understand how that argument could even work. Since the dawn of recorded history there has been (1) wildly varying levels of civilizational achievement depending on the era and (2) not nearly enough time for meaningful selection effects to be the cause of those variations. We could get into the reasons why physiological differences ("height") behave differently in genetics than behavioral differences ("cognit…

There are multiple factors at play:

- Among those who believe in intellectual differences among human groups, very few believe Europeans are the most intelligent group. The prevailing opinion you would find is that both Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians (your second example) are more intelligent on average.

- Northwest Europeans encountered intense selection over a Millennia starting around 300AD through a couple of mechanisms: The Church banning cousin marriage, and Biparte Manorialism. This resulted in the destruction of kinship networks, established the nuclear family, and selected for the high-trust peoples that enabled a kind of society you can still only find among those peoples.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#148

Post by zozbot234 »

EnPissant wrote: post #147
tptacek wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how that argument could even work. Since the dawn of recorded history there has been (1) wildly varying levels of civilizational achievement depending on the era and (2) not nearly enough time for meaningful selection effects to be the cause of those variations. We could get into the reasons why physiological differences ("height") behave differently in genetics than behavioral differences ("cognit…

There are multiple factors at play: - Among those who believe in intellectual differences among human groups, very few believe Europeans are the most intelligent group. The prevailing opinion you would find is that both Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians (your second example) are more intelligent on average. - Northwest Europeans encountered intense selection over a Millennia starting around 300AD through a couple of mec…

The notion that you can only find a high-trust society among Europeans looks like transparent bunk to me, easily refuted by looking at other highly developed countries. And the notion that this might be a matter of genetics even more so. Sadly, we won't be able to use CRISPR therapy as a way of improving social trust anytime soon!

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#149

Post by EnPissant »

zozbot234 wrote: post #148
EnPissant wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple factors at play: - Among those who believe in intellectual differences among human groups, very few believe Europeans are the most intelligent group. The prevailing opinion you would find is that both Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians (your second example) are more intelligent on average. - Northwest Europeans encountered intense selection over a Millennia starting around 300AD through a couple of mec…

The notion that you can only find a high-trust society among Europeans looks like transparent bunk to me, easily refuted by looking at other highly developed countries. And the notion that this might be a matter of genetics even more so. Sadly, we won't be able to use CRISPR therapy as a way of improving social trust anytime soon!

And yet when you look at corruption perception indexes, they largely track the Hajnal line. As do so many other graphs.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#150

Post by pfannkuchen »

tptacek wrote: post #144
green_wheel wrote: post #140

It seemed unlikely that ancestral populations had so many physiological differences, but not cognition. This seems like the last piece to compliment observed IQ differences between groups and levels of civilizational attainment.

I don't understand how that argument could even work. Since the dawn of recorded history there has been (1) wildly varying levels of civilizational achievement depending on the era and (2) not nearly enough time for meaningful selection effects to be the cause of those variations. We could get into the reasons why physiological differences ("height") behave differently in genetics than behavioral differences ("cognit…

> not nearly enough time for meaningful selection effects to be the cause of those variations

It isn’t enough time to produce many novel feature changes, but it is enough time to act as a filter, no?

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