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NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

grocerydive.com

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Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#141

Post by halflife »

yohannparis wrote: post #130
halflife wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because than people won’t come to your store. People buy where they can purchase the maximum of their shopping cart in a single place. That is why you have loss leader grocers, where they pull people with dramatic discounts on specific items, but the total cart costs the same

I understand your point of view. But in cities of all sizes, it's easier to not have to do that. For example in NYC, a medium size city, you can easily go do your shopping in multiple places, and not at the same time.

Yes, and some people do that.

Some consumers go to specific stores to purchase specific qualities of brands.

But most do not, especially for convenience products. You get it where you can.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#142

Post by scarecrowbob »

peyton wrote: post #137
ceejayoz wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Costco sells chickens as loss-leaders. They don't run out, and Walmart doesn't go buy all of them to resell.

I mean Costco’s a membership club. This is NYC. Of course somebody’s gonna show up with a truck and arb any profitable grocery item if there isn’t rationing.

Not being able to get stuff on a pallet or in a 5 gallon bucket or whatever has its own cost. Hell, not being able to invoice on NET30 or have a supplier or even not having to pick and pack stuff has a cost.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#143

Post by halflife »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #126
halflife wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery costs has to come from some formula. If the mamdani stores actually do sell at a lower cost, where did the discount come from?

Again. This exists. There is no theoretical here. Go look up how the military commissaries work. That will answer your question.

military commissaries are subsidized with taxes.

So would these stores have lower prices because of tax subsidies? What prevents rich people from exploiting these subsidies?

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#144

Post by KK7NIL »

asdff wrote: post #52
KK7NIL wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are pretty extraordinary claims with very little evidence. And, even if they are true, the obvious solution would be to enforce the already existing antitrust and competition laws, not to have the government directly engage in commerce.

Too much to write in a HN comment so here is a substack post (1) probably worthy of its own HN post. And how is that the obvious solution? You see who is in the Whitehouse and you think this is a champion of antitrust and lifting up the little man? Quite the opposite. NYC government is a separate entity than federal government with different limits to its powers. They can't do anything about cartel behavior. They can…

That post was not at all worth my time, it just cherry picked data without ever putting it together to show intentional price manipulation or monopolistic behavior (no, showing concentration isn't enough).

> They can't do anything about cartel behavior.

Incorrect, several states have passed their own antitrust laws, there's nothing that limits it to the federal government.

> The government engages in commerce all the time. If we took that argument to its logical conclusion there would be no libraries as they compete with book stores. There would be no armies as they compete with Blackrock mercenaries. No public transit as it competes with private transit. No public events as that competes with ticketmaster. No public schools. No public universities. No scientific research grants. No sheltering or feeding the poor. No treating the sick. No treating veterans. No bridges. No roads. No harbors....

I do think the government should get out of many of those, so your argument doesn't really land for me.

> No, it seems a big role in this country for government is facilitating conditions for commerce.

I don't see how the government driving out competition by running its own grocery stores, presumably at a loss, is "facilitating conditions for commerce".

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#145

Post by halflife »

shimman wrote: post #10
halflife wrote: post #3

This sounds extremely non economically viable. The municipality which has monopoly on land taxes and costs will compete with stores that must pay taxes and rent? Won’t it just cause neighboring stores to close? Won’t a better option be subsidizing taxes for grocery stores, and let the discounts competitively pass unto the customers?

You sound extremely privileged and frankly out of touch (not uncommon with the HN demographic). Do you think working families in NYC don't deserve the same monetary relief that massive corporations get with their own welfare programs? Why should trillion multinational companies take our public money to subsidize their businesses and we can't do the same for workers? Why do you prefer helping non human entities (corpo…

Subsidies can go to small businesses owners. Not just large corporations.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#146

Post by woodruffw »

oa335 wrote: post #128
woodruffw wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying theory is to put these stores in areas that otherwise lack grocery store access, meaning they won’t compete with existing stores for small margins. Running at a (moderate) loss would also be politically acceptable; the city runs a lot of things at a loss for civic purposes and fills the gaps with taxes. (This is the theory, the practice will be challenged by NYC’s ability to acquire land in neighborhoo…

> The underlying theory is to put these stores in areas that otherwise lack grocery store access, I’m generally partial to that motivation - however doesn’t seem to be happening here. This location (La Marqueta) is within a couple hundred feet of a "City Fresh Market" grocery store and ~1500 from several other grocery stores https://www.google.com/maps/search/grocery+store/@40.7983886...

Yes, I agree the city has undermined their own (strong) argument with their choice of location. I noted that in another comment as well.

(I previously lived about a ~10 minute walk from that public market.)

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#147

Post by asdff »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #138
asdff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much to write in a HN comment so here is a substack post (1) probably worthy of its own HN post. And how is that the obvious solution? You see who is in the Whitehouse and you think this is a champion of antitrust and lifting up the little man? Quite the opposite. NYC government is a separate entity than federal government with different limits to its powers. They can't do anything about cartel behavior. They can…

Good article, thanks for sharing. I haven't tried to verify its claims but at face value pretty illuminating. It seems to me both that: 1. If this article is true then independent groceries should have a slam dunk in keeping prices low. They aren't subject to the price fixing cartel of the big grocers so if they lower prices they'll drive demand to their store and win out on the market. Margins for staples are quite…

>Personally I'm not a fan of state run businesses because the US is so polarized. Today's support can turn into tomorrow's opposition. It's hard to build a lasting institution when differences in candidates and parties can wipe out any wins or losses.

Certain states the government actually operates the liquor stores so this isn't wholly unprecedented. Government also does this sort of thing for armed forces. It is interesting how the US military with its associated progression, benefits, services, and provided housing, is sort of a gleam into what a communist united states might have looked like in another timeline. Kind of ironic when you get a pro military pro capitalist person I guess. They have more experience with de facto communism than most and seemed to have liked a lot of aspects.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#148

Post by orwin »

rdtsc wrote: post #80

> “Some will insist that city-owned businesses do not work, that government cannot keep up with corporations. My answer to them is simple: I look forward to the competition. May the most affordable grocery store win,” Mamdani said. Well it's interesting enough to try. Are they going to keep the stores open at a loss, that's not really competing then, is it? If they sell things that are much cheaper, restaurants could…

Store are low margin businesses, unless they own the walls. In this case, what often happens is that when he retires, the owner keeps the walls but sells the business. The walls are put in an asset portfolio, while the poor bastard who bought the business see their renting cost climbing. And that's not talking about the buying group whose margin grow YoY while the shop margin goes down.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#149

Post by WalterBright »

ceejayoz wrote: post #79
WalterBright wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privately run grocery stores have been profitable for 250 years in the US. What has changed recently? Could it be the decriminalization of shoplifting? Or maybe excessive taxes? Or mandates on wages? Vandalism? I forgot to add homeless camping around them, which discourages shoppers.

> Could it be the decriminalization of shoplifting? Or maybe excessive taxes? Or mandates on wages? Could it be the K-shaped economy? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-08/top-1-ear... "After years of declines, America’s middle class now holds a smaller share of U.S. wealth than the top 1%." "Over the past 30 years, 10 percentage points of American wealth has shifted to the top 20% of earners, who now ho…

"Share" of the wealth says nothing about what the amount is. For example, if you create $10 of wealth, my share of the total wealth goes down, but my wealth is unaffected.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#150

Post by ceejayoz »

miketery wrote: post #140
ceejayoz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text isn't confusing; the conclusion you draw is just unsupported. The USSR is an example of many failed things. That they failed at those things does not mean those things cannot be done.

If it wasn't confusing what made you bring up the space program and fixing roads? I was offering a tangible example of where the thing being proposed was a failure.

> If it wasn't confusing what made you bring up the space program and fixing roads?

They are examples of the USSR failing at a possible thing. They illustrate my critique of your claim.

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