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The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

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Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#141

Post by trollbridge »

15155 wrote: post #76
trollbridge wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd argue that shell casings are probably harder to manufacture than a fully working firearm. The equipment needed to manufacture working ammunition end-to-end is pretty serious.

All of these manufacturing equipment and processes existed more than a century ago. If you have a capable VMC, you can make the die and other equipment necessary to stamp shell casings from commonly-available parts and machinery. From there, with a modern Dillon or Hornady reloading press, you can crank out thousands of rounds per day without issue. Primers are a legitimately difficult thing to manufacture, but (good…

I have no ability to make primers specifically, and wouldn’t even know where to start.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#142

Post by cindyllm »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #140
themafia wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a citizen with a gun I can shoot you before the police arrive.

The powers that be are far more concerned with you shooting the police before more police arrive.

[dead]

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#143

Post by FarmerPotato »

Aspos wrote: post #24
jmyeet wrote: post #17

I'm surprised the EFF didn't address the issue that traditional printer manufacturers already comply with law enforcement, specifically that a fingerprint of yellow tracking dots [1] are printed and printers will often refuse to or fail to copy images of money. My point is there's already precedent for printers cooperating with authorities so one can see this as simply an extension to 3D printer manufacturers. I susp…

I believe EFF did address the yellow dots but got nowhere. Yellow dot problem is decades old.

That's why real hackers refurbish dot-matrix printers.

GDR

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#144

Post by YurgenJurgensen »

bmurphy1976 wrote: post #65
krunck wrote: post #57

Lets imagine a similar situation but instead of with an additive manufacturing process they try to regulate a subtractive manufacturing process: a traditional CNC machine. There is no way to prevent the CNC system from machining gun parts as along as the machining is done in discrete steps with the same work piece. The software can't know what sitting on the CNC table. In additive manufacturing it is more difficult b…

Some of these bills are written in such a way that they would apply to CNC manufacturing, such that they could even make building your own machine from scratch illegal. They are terribly oppressive and short-sighted.

“Short-sighted” implies that those in favour of this would see it as a bad thing, when in fact, that’s likely the real objective. This is just another shot in the war on ownership.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#145

Post by WillPostForFood »

MisterTea wrote: post #58
simplyluke wrote: post #19

The 3d printer gun legislation has been rearing its head in a bunch of states this year, and generally with very similar patterns. I suspect some of the pro-gun-control groups have been pushing it to lawmakers given most legislation is basically copy-pastes from lobbying groups at both the state and federal level. Colorado, Washington, New York, and now California have all floated legislation attempting to make devic…

I really think all of this is the result of Mangione. Regulating 3D printers has been talked about for years with no action. Then a year after the CEO of a large well known company is killed with a 3D printed gun the states are suddenly pushing highly invasive 3D printing laws. It's no coincidence NY was the first to push for such a law, the state where said CEO was killed.

No, this is Everytown USA model legislation. They wrote it, and are lobbying for it.

https://everytownsupportfund.org/press/new-everytown-report-...

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#146

Post by cucumber3732842 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #133
nemomarx wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also restrict the components of those pretty heavily, though. Try buying too much fertilizer without a farm and see who shows up. This isn't a judgement on your general point, but I think bombs and bioweapons and etc are very bad examples for you here.

Explosives are a weird case because Americans can just buy industrially manufactured high explosives. Attempting to DIY an explosive that is almost certainly inferior to what you can buy commercially is a red flag. Before 9/11 caused them to tighten up the rules, buying high explosives in the US was cash-and-carry. You could walk in and select different kinds of high explosives from a giant menu. If you wanted someth…

>before 9/11 caused them to tighten up the rules,

You mean "before the Weather Underground blew up a bunch of random shit with hardware store dynamite in the 1970s".

>It still isn't difficult today from my understanding, there is just more paperwork.

The paperwork and compliance is enough of an expensive PITA it precludes everyone who isn't a regular commercial user, which is exactly the point.

It used to be that farmers just cleared forest and blew stumps and rocks up. This might sound absurd but when you start looking at the cost of doing that job with equipment it's preferable if you're rural enough to not endanger anything.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#147

Post by mjmas »

lazide wrote: post #100
horsawlarway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, but at some point you're just banning "manufacturing". if someone wants to make a gun... they can. It's not complex to manufacturer simple firearms - we managed it as far back as the freaking 10th century. So why freak out over this, for example, and not CNCs? Or Power tools? Or forges (CHF barrels are a thing too!)?

Because those aren't as trendy right now. This is similar to banning nunchucks and throwing stars in the 80's (yes, that was a thing).

> was a thing

Still a thing in Australia.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#148

Post by lq9AJ8yrfs »

horsawlarway wrote: post #93
aidenn0 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not on top of the current SOTA in 3d-printed guns, but the way it typically was done in the past is that you don't actually 3d-print all of what you or I would call a complete gun. The barrel will be metal. In designs made for the US market, it will almost certainly be an actual manufactured gun barrel, since gun parts other than the receiver are not closely tracked in the US. In designs for Western Europe, the m…

yeah, but at some point you're just banning "manufacturing". if someone wants to make a gun... they can. It's not complex to manufacturer simple firearms - we managed it as far back as the freaking 10th century. So why freak out over this, for example, and not CNCs? Or Power tools? Or forges (CHF barrels are a thing too!)?

CNC milling is typically included in the bans being considered in various states.

While poetically consistent, it enlarges the crater around these bad laws if they are passed and enforced. Basically all new manufacturing setups will need to stop and reprogram to stop and start according to fluctuating rules designed by committee, and will need to be made brittle to prevent circumvention.

It is a debacle.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#149

Post by WillPostForFood »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #137
asdff wrote: post #3

Why don't these bills go after ammo or gunpowder access? Seems as long as you have access to a cylinder, and ammunition, you can make a gun.

Because the 2A and related jurisprudence exists and so that will be struck down in court in about 10wk whereas a "novel" convoluted regulation like micro managing printers will take 10yr.

Gun Control legislation is plenty slow to move through courts as well. The California magazine limits passed in 1999, it is sitting at the Supreme Court, waiting now 26 years later.

The Sullivan Act was passed in 1911, and it took 111 years to overturn (Bruen). So gun control cases move slowly like everything else.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#150

Post by fooker »

This is why republicans get votes.

If you pull nonsense like this in a two party system, there are enough people with blind spots that it tilts the results against you.

My favorite example of such a blind spot is a friend being flabbergasted that someone funny could be evil.

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