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The looming college-enrollment death spiral

theatlantic.com

141–150 of 174 posts

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unpopular here, but I judge degree of development / maturity of societies on 2 major factors : 1) how it can take care of the vulnerable members in need - mostly heathcare, with som basic social support to help you bridge between jobs, plus obviously (mostly self-earned but managed by state) retirement; and 2) how well it invests into its future via education on all levels. Education aint luxury but empowering basi…

> which would you choose? The ones you're more-inclined to choose are the better ones Funny how despite all that, more people choose to come to the US from those "mature" societies than the other way around.

In the US there've historically been great work and wealth-generating opportunities that weren't as readily available in Europe. That seems to come at the price of less safety net if something goes wrong e:g health problems, disability, job loss. In recent times Europe has become more like the US in the sense of cutting safety nets while being more entrepreneurial. I think this'll lead to less people choosing to move to the US from Europe, compounded by US now having possibly less opportunities and an administration that makes even well qualified legal immigrants feel unsafe. Which will become self-fulfilling, the opportunities of the future will increasingly be outside the US. As to why more Americans haven't historically moved to Europe, my guess would be its simply unawareness of how actually for a lot of people it'd give a better quality of life.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#142

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

I think we need more Software Engineers, and fewer Computer Scientists.

IME, CS as a profession, doesn't need to concern itself with maintenance, secure coding practices, administration, system implementation, etc. There's no class called "maintaining this POS code base from 10 years ago."

CS folk fail when they don't make the top of a leader board for sorting algos.

Software Engineers fail if they tell you that maintenance requires 10 manual touch points over a weekend.

Different concerns. While software engineering is built upon CS fundamentals, ultimately your concern is with what's coming years down the line when your unpatched "hack week" project is underpinning the business model.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#143

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

If college is considered a glorified high school diploma, then not having one is like not having a high school diploma.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#144

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

> CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp anyway, it is at its heart an academic degree much close to pure mathematics than programming. Maybe it should go back to that? Maybe college never should have been for everyone?

That's absolutely what I think, since even before the proliferation of LLMs.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#145

I think college's value proposition and entire model has been eroded. Major school's CS grads are finding jobs upon graduation at an 11% rate (I don't have the primary source on this, but it is published by a site I read that never fudges these kinds of things, going back many years). AI probably has a lot to do with that, but it's exposing something more fundamental. CS wasn't supposed to be a programming boot camp…

The idea that the AVERAGE person should spend 4 years BOTH not working AND incurring massive amounts of (non-defaultable) debt is bananas. College either needs to be 1) way cheaper, 2) mainly for the state-subsidized exceptional and independently wealthy, or 3) move to a different model. We have too many colleges LARPing as Harvard, and too few colleges even attempting to be affordable, practical, or actually deliver…

That's absolutely not the point of higher education, don't drag it down to the level of industry please.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#146
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then at the very least college debt should be dischargeable in bankruptcy the way people can walk away from their mortgage.

Agreed. The idiotic law not allowing college debt to be cleared by bankruptcy is the primary reason why college has gotten so expensive.

Then treat college debt like any other loan instead of subsidies backstopped with government bailouts.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#147
Well this has been essentially the plan since the 70's. The 60's scared the bejeezus out of the ruling class and they began taking steps to bring the people to heel from the 70's onward. In the words of Ronald Reagan's education advisor, Roger Freeman: "We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. … That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow [to go to college].”

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#148
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one thing, critical thinking and communication skills seem to be in short supply.

Students in America don't have jobs. You can be motherfucking Einstein but you will still have to be a waiter in a cafe to contribute to society and pay for your student room. When you are 20 you don't need sleep.

I hope you aren't hit by a sleep-deprived 20 year old driving from their night shift to an early morning class.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#149
post #74
post #11

Isn’t there a strong argument that we put too many students in debt with a partially completed or useless degree in a well meaning push for “college for all”? The triumph the author describes - an increase in colleges - came at the expense of a reduction in vocational schools and programs.

Some colleges seem to be glorified sports teams that happen to have a school attached.

A lot of others are real estate companies that happen to have a school attached.

Re: The looming college-enrollment death spiral

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just have to fire 80% of the administration, kill all of the "programs" which are trying to do this or that, and focus on A) providing the basic resources for academics to study and B) providing the basic resources for teaching. Universities need to do very much less that isn't directly related to research or teaching and stop pretending the lead administrator of a university is an important position. The preside…

If you do this, you will destroy half of the top 20 hospital systems in the US, as they are run by Universities. Now maybe separating medical systems from universities is a good idea, but it's not simple by any means. Government data on university expenditures show that at a broad level the increases in instructional and student-related expenditures are modest. Much of the increase is in the aforementioned medical sy…

Those are under the umbrella of research and teaching no?
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