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Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

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Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#141
post #100

This is a perfect illustration of what cracks me up about the hyperbolic reactions to Mythos. Yes, increased automation of cutting-edge vulnerability discovery will shake things up a bit. No, it's nowhere near the top of what should be keeping you awake at night if you're working in infosec. We've built our existing tech stacks and corporate governance structures for a different era. If you want to credit one specifi…

These are vastly different scales though. “If North Korea wanted to, they could spend a lot of money and get into your system” is wildly different to “anyone with a few bucks who can ask ‘please find an exploit for Y’ can get in”

To be fair, the recent Axios supply chain attack was North Korea based, and probably cost them very little money. So it illustrates that you don’t have to “spend a lot of money” to get into our systems.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#142

This is a perfect illustration of what cracks me up about the hyperbolic reactions to Mythos. Yes, increased automation of cutting-edge vulnerability discovery will shake things up a bit. No, it's nowhere near the top of what should be keeping you awake at night if you're working in infosec. We've built our existing tech stacks and corporate governance structures for a different era. If you want to credit one specifi…

> This is a perfect illustration of what cracks me up about the hyperbolic reactions to Mythos. Yes, increased automation of cutting-edge vulnerability discovery will shake things up a bit. No, it's nowhere near the top of what should be keeping you awake at night if you're working in infosec. Mythos will most likely not be the main thing that changes the infosec world, but AI in general will. Maybe in a few years or…

IMO the thing that AI will change is the type of target. It's reasonable to assume that if you launch a website for a small business nowadays - sure, you'll get phishing attempts, port scans, attempts to submit SQL injections into your signup forms, etc.

But you won't get the equivalent of a sophisticated actor's spear-phishing efforts, highly customized supply chain attacks on likely vendor data, the individualized attention to not just blindly propagate when a developer downloads a hacked NPM package or otherwise gets a local virus... but to log into the company's SaaS systems overnight, pivot to senior colleagues, do crazy things like update PRs to simultaneously fix bugs while subtly adding injection surface areas, log into configuration systems whose changes aren't tracked in Git, identify how one might sign up as a vendor and trigger automatic payments to themselves with a Slack DM as cross-channel confirmation, etc.

The only thing holding this back from hitting every company is risk vs. reward. And when the likelihood of success, multiplied by the payout, exceeds the token cost - which might not happen with Mythos, but might happen with open source coding models distilled from it, running on crypto mining servers during times that minting is unprofitable, or by state actors for whom mere chaos is the goal - that threshold is rapidly approaching.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#143
I think the main problem here is the ideology of software updating. Updates represent a tradeoff: On one hand there might be security vulnerabilities that need an update to fix, and developers don't want to receive bug reports or maintain server infrastructure for obsolete versions. On the other hand, the developer might make decisions users don't want, or turn evil temporarily (as in a supply chain attack) or permanently (as in selling off control of a Wordpress extension).

In the case of small Wordpress extensions from individual developers, I think the tradeoff is such that you should basically never allow auto-updating. Unfortunately wordpress.org runs a Wordpress extension marketplace that doesn't work that way, and worse. I think that other than a small number of high-visibility long-established extensions, you should basically never install anything from there, and if you want a Wordpress extension you should download its source code and install it manually as an unpacked extension.

(This is a comment that I wrote about Chrome extensions, where I replaced Chrome with Wordpress, deleted one sentence about Google, and it was all still true. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47721946#47724474 )

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#144

The supply chain attack surface in WordPress plugins has always been particularly dangerous because the ecosystem encourages users to install many small single-purpose plugins from individual developers, most of whom aren't security-focused organizations. Buying out an established plugin with a large install base is a clever approach because you inherit years of user trust that took the original developer a long time…

A big part is also that wp.org is very tolerant of malicious-adjacent actors.

Actual malware? the plugins will get blocked.

Plugin randomly starts injecting javascript from a third party domain that displays some football related widget with affiliate links? they figured that's perfectly in the (new) owner's right and rejected any action even though it was a classic bait and switch with an entirely unrelated plugin.

At some point you have to assume it's by design.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#145

This is a perfect illustration of what cracks me up about the hyperbolic reactions to Mythos. Yes, increased automation of cutting-edge vulnerability discovery will shake things up a bit. No, it's nowhere near the top of what should be keeping you awake at night if you're working in infosec. We've built our existing tech stacks and corporate governance structures for a different era. If you want to credit one specifi…

What if gov shook up tech regulation a bit. Right now App Store is a bit of a weird gold standard for security, except that it is rife with scams.

What if regulators _required_ an independent app store where apps go through such stringent reviews that reviewers provide actual guarantees with underwriting (read: government backstop) that the thing is secure.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#146
post #51

[flagged]

I'm not a crypto expert but how would that have solved this? 1. Make a website 2. Website has trusted code 3. Code update adds a virus How do your suggestions fix those? Not trying to be dismissive I work on zero trust security perhaps I'm missing something crypto has to offer here?

You don’t need to be a crypto expert, blockchain is just to avoid the double-spend problem for the currency that is needed in the ecosystem.

If you want everything to be free, you don’t need it.

If you want everything to be centralized, you don’t need it. But being centralized, you introduce a massive single point of failure: the sysadmin of the network. Just look at how many attacks there have been, eg trying to backdoor SSH for instance.

Anyway… the answer to what you asked lies in the approach to updates. Why did you choose to run this update that had a virus?

Remember I mentioned pinned versions and M of N auditors signing off on each update? Start there. Why can’t these corporations with billions of dollars hire auditors to certify the next versions of critical widely used packages?

Or how about the community does these audits instead of just npm requiring two-factor authentication for the author? Even better — these days you could have a growing battery of automated tests writen by AI that operates an auditor and signs off on the result as one of the auditors.

This should be obvious. A city of people should have a gate, and the guards shouldn’t just import a trojan horse through a gate anytime at 3am. What is this LOL

Finally, I would recommend running untrusted apps and plugins on completely other machines than the trusted core. Just communicate via iframes. You can have postMessage and the protocol can even require human approval for some things. In that case byebye to worries about MELTDOWN and SPECTRE and other side-channel and timing attacks too.

I could go on and on… the rabbithole goes deep. I built https://safebots.ai in case you are curious to discuss more — get in touch via my profile.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#147
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Cryptocurrencies are part of said new era. They aren't strictly a problem that made things worse: they're a technology that comes with tradeoffs. The cat is out of the bag and we have to design around technologies that are here to stay in whatever capacity. Distributed, cryptography-based currencies/tokens are one of those technologies.

Yes, on the one hand, they enable a lot of shady illegal business, but in the other hand, they also destroy the environment while doing it, so it's really a toss up whether cryptocurrency is good or bad overall!

bitcoin is forecast to uses about 150 TWh of electricity this year vs all other datacenter operations foretasted to use 1000 TWh. Bitcoin is esitimated to be about 52.4% sustainable energy (renewables plus nuclear) where datacenters are 42% sustainable energy.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#149

This is a perfect illustration of what cracks me up about the hyperbolic reactions to Mythos. Yes, increased automation of cutting-edge vulnerability discovery will shake things up a bit. No, it's nowhere near the top of what should be keeping you awake at night if you're working in infosec. We've built our existing tech stacks and corporate governance structures for a different era. If you want to credit one specifi…

wow, I remember a time when hacker news had at least seemingly intelligent people and valid arguments.

Re: Someone bought 30 WordPress plugins and planted a backdoor in all of them

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata from a JS developer who has been in this ecosystem for 14 years. I'm actively moving away from Node.js and JavaScript in general. This has been triggered by recent spike in supply chain attacks. Backend: I'm choosing to use Golang, since it has one of the most complete standard libraries. This means I don't have to install 3rd party libraries for common tasks. It is also quite performant, and has great suppo…

> React happily also has 0 dependencies, Ok, but it has 112 devDependencies, I'm not really sure "0 dependencies" best describes React.

Dev dependencies are not installed when you install the package into your project.

Also I checked how many deps vuejs has, also 0.

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