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Shooting down ideas is not a skill

scottlawsonbc.com

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Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#141

Post by scottlawson »

phil21 wrote: post #94
dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

> People don't want change? Nah, people like change when it is obvious to them that the change is good. I agree with more or less everything but this one. I would modify it. People don't want change? Nah, people like change when it is obvious to them that the change is good for them personally . You can introduce a change that would be great for the organization and customers, but totally eliminate the current projec…

the "good for them personally" reaction is so true. It's almost like a team-level version of the inonvator's dilemma, where protecting the thing you already own feels more rational than supporting something that might replace it.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#142

Post by anal_reactor »

dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

> it is now your job

I don't care about my job anymore, that's the problem. One too many good ideas has been shot down, one too many stupid ideas has been pushed through. If my manager and a huge chunk of my coworkers are simply incompetent, then trying to convince people to do something smart gets old very fast.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#144

Post by scottlawson »

citizenpaul wrote: post #83
dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

>DevOps won't want to support it? Burn down the company Still true but you seem to blame the ops. I've been in a job where every dept was allowed free for all tech budgets. They would hire incompetent consultants to dump 3000hrs of work on devops then do it again next week and complain about how devops never gets anything done. Then 5 other departments would do the same thing. You know how 99% of the work is in that…

what I meant with "DevOps won't want to support it" was someone saying this before DevOps had even been asked, and by someone who wasn't even on DevOps, who just assumed that they probably wouldn't like this sort of thing.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#145

Post by sakjur »

citizenpaul wrote: post #83
dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

>DevOps won't want to support it? Burn down the company Still true but you seem to blame the ops. I've been in a job where every dept was allowed free for all tech budgets. They would hire incompetent consultants to dump 3000hrs of work on devops then do it again next week and complain about how devops never gets anything done. Then 5 other departments would do the same thing. You know how 99% of the work is in that…

I read that as a frustration with the disparity between "you build it, you run it" and the enterprise-y habit to co-opt terms from free-roaming developers and stripping them of all meaning.

You can still have a central team of operators. When they're expected to deploy and support applications from development or procurement teams, I'd argue that's something else than devops for better or worse.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#146

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bawolff wrote: post #132
sfink wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a plan, it's an idea. You're shooting down an idea for not being a plan. The best person for coming up with the idea will probably also come up with some of the pieces of the plan, but they're unlikely to be the best person to figure out all of it. That's why you have a company not a sole proprietorship.

> You're shooting down an idea for not being a plan. If you are pitching an idea out of nowhere, than i think it better have a semblence of a plan, otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time. Like maybe its a bit different if you are brainstorming for an acknowledged problem, but that is not what the article made it sound like. The article made it sound like the idea was being pitched unsolicited, with no clear p…

> If you are pitching an idea out of nowhere, than i think it better have a semblence of a plan, otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time

Depends on context. Shooting the shit is valuable.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#147

Post by simianwords »

I see this happening in modern day politics when it comes to critiquing tech.

For instance, consider AI data centres in space: look, everyone knows its a high risk bet. If you do the easy thing of shooting it down, you may "win" the bet often enough. But try to understand that the world works by taking bold bets - each thing you see is a bold bet, not coming from a planned economy. I see my own laptop - the processor, the internet, the screen - everything was a bold bet at one point.

Shooting down ideas is easy and temporarily confers high status on you (since you win the bet more often than not) but in the long run such a game will show itself as ridiculous.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#148

Post by unmole »

dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

> Can't use Python because it's too slow? Show a proof of concept that is fast.

The burden of proof is on the other side. Prove that Python is too slow for the intended usecase.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#149

Post by tmerr »

Where to start. The process I see work well in practice is.

1. Generate an idea. 2. Let critics help identify flaws. 3. If it's unsalvageable give up. Otherwise, modify the idea and go to (1).

This works well in a collaborative environment where people share ideas early.

> The person proposing has been thinking about this for weeks or months. They've tested pieces of it in their head or even built proofs of concept. They understand things about the idea that aren't obvious yet. And they're trying to explain all of this to a room full of people encountering it for the first time.

Assuming this blog post is based on real world experience, I want to point out that this describes a very slow feedback loop, and it's not necessarily typical or a good thing.

Re: Shooting down ideas is not a skill

#150

Post by paul_h »

dsr_ wrote: post #49

> "I haven't heard any customers request this." "We can't use Python for that, it's too slow." "That introduces too much complexity." "We tried something like that before and it didn't work." "DevOps won't want to support another service." "People are used to the way it works now." > None of these people are wrong or stupid. And none of them have added any value. Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart,…

> Bzzt. Since all of these people are correct and smart, it is now your job to have great answers to their objections.

Power assymetry and tenure are a factor. So is "culture eats strategy for breakfast" realities in organizations.

e.g. Change of pandemic messaging in early 2020 from "covid transmits by droplets and fomites and 2 meters and handwashing keep you safe" to "covid is airborne and fills a room like smoke" (and multiple mitigations around that) was attempted in groups by multiple expert scientists and ultimately took years when it needed to be done fast. One key moment: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22where+is+your+evidence+li... You can come with evidence for those tough questions to support your position, but one grandee scoffs at your suggestion in the meeting you networked hard to get and there's no recovery.

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