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German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

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Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#141

Post by itsyonas »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #115
itsyonas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't think the problem with war is that not enough women die in it. It makes more sense to argue against forcing anyone against their will to fight in a war.

That's a non-sequitur to the question. And the answer is that women are equal to men in all things, except when things get serious, and then all of a sudden biology matters again

> That's a non-sequitur to the question.

How so? Why isn't the question 'Why is anyone being forced at all?' Their question assumes that someone has to be forced, which I fundamentally disagree with, so they should justify that assumption first.

> And the answer is that women are equal to men in all things, except when things get serious, and then all of a sudden biology matters again

Correct. They are equal, so I don't think either men or women should be forced.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#142

Post by atomicnumber3 »

diath wrote: post #100

Why does it exclude women? War is not just physical strength, but also logistics, operating vehicles, operating drones, nursing, and so on. All tasks that women are well capable of.

A lot of draft laws haven't been touched in a long time and aren't updated for modern gender politics. Though I do wonder if they'll actually get updated ever - no politician wants to touch it and it's not like anyone is screaming for the right to be forced to go die in war.

It's always weird to me how surprised women are that every single man they know has had to specifically, actually physically ink paper to sign up for the draft. It definitely feels weird/spooky when you do it, given the implications and that despite being compulsory it's not automatically done for you.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#143

Post by peyton »

orange_joe wrote: post #118

How does feminism survive if this becomes the norm? If young men feel like they're expected to give more to their society it's natural to expect renumeration financial, socially or politically. Nordic countries don't seem to have this problem, but their conscription laws are quite relaxed compared to what the future will likely hold. A declining youth population almost certainly means greater youth repression (higher…

It won’t and it never has. It’s not like society post-1945 developed the phenomenon for the first time in human history. Even in this country, New Jersey was the last state to ban women voting in 1807 iirc.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#144

Post by yorwba »

diath wrote: post #100

Why does it exclude women? War is not just physical strength, but also logistics, operating vehicles, operating drones, nursing, and so on. All tasks that women are well capable of.

Because the constitution only allows drafting men: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...

The intersection of parties wanting to reinstate compulsory military service and parties supporting gender equality doesn't currently have the necessary supermajority to change the constitution. So we get a wishy-washy compromise, as is so often the case in democracies.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#145

Post by einpoklum »

diath wrote: post #100

Why does it exclude women? War is not just physical strength, but also logistics, operating vehicles, operating drones, nursing, and so on. All tasks that women are well capable of.

> Why does it exclude women?

In addition to the legal point regarding the constitution: A lot less people in those roles you listed, die. The compulsion is necessary for the state to get enough people to go die - or at least, seriously risk their lives - for it on the battlefield.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#147

Post by mothballed »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #115
itsyonas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't think the problem with war is that not enough women die in it. It makes more sense to argue against forcing anyone against their will to fight in a war.

That's a non-sequitur to the question. And the answer is that women are equal to men in all things, except when things get serious, and then all of a sudden biology matters again

Well women are the rate limiting factor in having more men produced for war fodder.

It probably makes more sense to ban birth control at the same time men are required to die for the war machine as both would then be playing out their slavery-induced biological role in ensuring survival of the nation. That is if you're down with the whole slavery for war thing.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#149

Post by _cenw »

cubefox wrote: post #138
_cenw wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I reject your accusation of transphobia. I point out that you seem to be fine with discriminating against some males but not others.

Trans women are not male, including biologically if you assume HRT. This is overcompensating rationality to shit on a group of people that are functionally intersex for "biological" distinction.

And we're not even talking about a context where biology matters. You just wanted to vice signal.

If you want to make this an SBGG criticism, I'd love to see you even get close to proving abuse beyond singular instances. Even all the right-wingers that said they'd change their gender marker to make a point did not. Because people don't do that lightly.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#150

Post by orange_joe »

dwedge wrote: post #132
orange_joe wrote: post #118

How does feminism survive if this becomes the norm? If young men feel like they're expected to give more to their society it's natural to expect renumeration financial, socially or politically. Nordic countries don't seem to have this problem, but their conscription laws are quite relaxed compared to what the future will likely hold. A declining youth population almost certainly means greater youth repression (higher…

Why would this affect feminism? If they want to fight for equal rights to conscription nobody is stopping them, and if they don't nobody is going to force them to. These gotchas don't really have any reflection on reality.

I am wondering if the affected men will demand preferential treatment as a consequence of service. Women currently benefit from disproportionate employment in the social safety net, affirmative action in German government hiring, etc. I would imagine that this would be essentially offensive to the men who are required to stay in the country, or face (potential future) conscription. I suspect the demands of European governments will increase as countries continue to age.
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