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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#141

Post by jerf »

brookst wrote: post #111
Koshkin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents do not have to be "experts in chilhood development" to know what is best for their children. Especially experts in their fields like the manufacturing of alcohol, guns or other products universallly considered dangerous.

So, if parents can rely on a a century of more of science showing the negative impacts of guns, tobacco, and alcohol on children… they can rely on vibes and politicians for evidence of harm from screens? I’m not even arguing with you. I’m just disappointed in how quickly so many on HN throw out all pretense of being interested in data as soon as a personal hot button issue comes up. It’s human nature I guess, but sti…

The existence of science does not obligate us to either receive a double-blind study of massive statistical significance on the exact question we're thinking about or to throw our hands up in total ignorance and sit in a corner crying about the lack of a scientific study.

It is perfectly rational to rely on experience for what screens do to children when that's all we have. You operate on that standard all the time. I know that, because you have no choice. There are plenty of choices you must make without a "data" to back you up on.

Moreover, there is plenty of data on this topic and if there is any study out there that even remotely supports the idea that it's all just hunky-dory for kids to be exposed to arbitrary amounts of "screen time" and parents are just silly for being worried about what it may be doing to their children, I sure haven't seen it go by. (I don't love the vagueness of the term "screen time" but for this discussion it'll do... anyone who wants to complain about it in a reply be my guest but be aware I don't really like it either.)

"Politicians" didn't even begin to enter into my decisions and I doubt it did for very many people either. This is one of the cases where the politicians are just jumping in front of an existing parade and claiming to be the leaders. But they aren't, and the parade isn't following them.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#142

Post by bombcar »

argee wrote: post #24
greenbit wrote: post #18

Having observed a fair amount of computer based primary school, it seems to me anyway that the biggest problem is that kids just can't focus properly that way. Even if the machine is locked down to prevent open internet access, it's just too easy for them to become distracted by the medium itself. Books, pencils and paper may not be flashy, but isn't that actually desirable, in this context?

If you open any of my middle school notebooks you'll find around 5-10x more doodles than notes, by surface area.

It could be that the inability to doodle is actually cramping current students - it might be important to management of boredom?

Digital doodling should be possible; I know I've used the zoom annotation feature to doodle during meetings.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#143

Post by lynx97 »

mentalgear wrote: post #15

I remember that - even though Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day' - he never allowed his children to use iPads. I bet Zuckerberg doesn't allow his children to use social media. And I assume that Sam Altman won't allow his children to use AI chatbots. What does that tell us?

It tells us that you seem to assume a lot.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#144

Post by heraldgeezer »

yodsanklai wrote: post #108
TaupeRanger wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

> We also limit access to sugary foods and other things that can be damaging in excess. Maybe you do, but not everybody does. 19.7% of American kids are obese. The hypocrisy is that tech executives promote and lobby for excessive use of their products (even manufacturing addiction), but know better for their kids.

[flagged]

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#145

Post by tonyedgecombe »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #14
kzrdude wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About "all the way up to high school", what about the rest? I'm in the camp that it's better for all people, regardless of age actually.

Well in university you are typically an adult and so what your parents think about the study material isn't a great concern, except for the case they are a subject matter expert.

Transitioning to adulthood but there is still a long way to go for most.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#146

Post by Bombthecat »

mentalgear wrote: post #15

I remember that - even though Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day' - he never allowed his children to use iPads. I bet Zuckerberg doesn't allow his children to use social media. And I assume that Sam Altman won't allow his children to use AI chatbots. What does that tell us?

Yep, that's why it won't help. The rest of the time at home, they will stick to the screen.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#147

Post by darkwater »

szmarczak wrote: post #116
smatti wrote: post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

> The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids Any scientific backing that screens are at fault? I don't think so. E-ink tablets do exist. When I'm having children, I'm buying them a remarkable with all the books scanned. Sure, they still need physical sheets of paper and a pen, but they don't have to carry 2-3 kgs of literature. The major reason against digital literature is…

It's not that simple, at all. Any kind of electronic device adds a complexity that many HNers tend to underestimate. Giving an e-ink device would probably be the best approach but you have to manage them at scale, and I don't think there is any solution out of the box right now. But to give a general computing device like an iPad or a Chromebook to teenagers was going to end like this from day 0.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#148

Post by bjourne »

I hate articles like these. They get 10% right and the remaining 90% is just some random filler. I don't have time to write a lengthy comment but do note the LACK of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. There is no evidence that jacking kids cell phones and swapping digital articles for physical books improves anything. It's part of the perennial right-wing message: "Kids are so unruly these days! We need to discipline them harder!"

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#149

Post by rfrey »

TaupeRanger wrote: post #97
mentalgear wrote: post #15

I remember that - even though Steve Jobs promoted the iPad as a replacement to the 'heavy schoolbooks kids had to carry all day' - he never allowed his children to use iPads. I bet Zuckerberg doesn't allow his children to use social media. And I assume that Sam Altman won't allow his children to use AI chatbots. What does that tell us?

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

Tobacco executives probably prevented their children from smoking, especially as evidence emerged. That's just parenting.

It doesn't forgive them for lobbying ferociously against any regulation of marketing to children.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#150

Post by [deleted] »

heraldgeezer wrote: post #144
yodsanklai wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also limit access to sugary foods and other things that can be damaging in excess. Maybe you do, but not everybody does. 19.7% of American kids are obese. The hypocrisy is that tech executives promote and lobby for excessive use of their products (even manufacturing addiction), but know better for their kids.

[flagged]

[deleted]
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