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The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

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Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#141

Post by goatlover »

fragmede wrote: post #37
kasey_junk wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone ever actually use that line? Most people will argue that the trade off in privacy is worth it for security. That is, if you frame your argument such that you believe people don’t understand the trade off it allows you to not engage with the fact they just disagree with your conclusion.

The mistake would be reading Hacker News and walking away with the conclusion that because people don't post that reasoning here that it doesn't exist (and even then, you do find that does come up here on occasion). People with "nothing to hide" do actually believe that, and while they may not post it to HN for vigorous debate. The easy counterexample from history is the list of Jews kept by the Netherlands which was…

The reasoning sounds like status quo from the majority group who hasn't experienced discrimination and thinks the powers that be could never become like those awful countries with dictators. Also a complete lack of imagination (and knowledge of the past) about how something considered legal and common now could become criminalized.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#142

Post by magicalhippo »

inetknght wrote: post #129
jackyinger wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about it being occupied, it is about what is happening inside.

Everyone knows what's happening inside.

Indeed, people are snorting coke. Hence why they want doors.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#143

Post by magicalhippo »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #140
smcin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To correct the mangling of history, there was no "list of Jews kept by the Netherlands [pre-occupation]". There were only pre-existing Dutch population registries of all people, where the personal details collected by the Dutch had included religion, not for any ill purpose. (The Nazis subsequently compiled a list, post-occupation, but that's not what you asserted.)

So, the Netherlands kept a list of everyone, and they specifically marked out all the Jews, but that doesn't constitute keeping a list of Jews?

It wasn't a list of Jews, it was a list of everyone from which Jews could be easily identified.

The distinction is important in this context, since the purpose of collecting and keeping the data wasn't specifically to have a list of Jews handy.

This is relevant to data collected by companies and governments today.

Consider a list of children with their parent names and the parents' preferred pronouns. You don't have a list of gays, but you have a list from which gays can be readily identified with high accuracy.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#144

Post by classified »

pardon_me wrote: post #102
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone who's not terribly worried about privacy always uses the line 'if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about', "Saying you don't need privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't need freedom of speech because you have nothing to say." - Edward Snowden

Locks on bathroom doors are for privacy, not security.

Meaning what?

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#145

Post by harry8 »

classified wrote: post #144
pardon_me wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locks on bathroom doors are for privacy, not security.

Meaning what?

The misguided who say they don’t need privacy suddenly have a dense memory of the thousands of times they’ve turned the lock on a bathroom door and consider the idea of deficating in full view as an alternative.

The meaning is to highlight the incredible silliness of the “nothing to hide” skawkers who sound like so many Soviet propagandists.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#146

Post by PetriCasserole »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #13

Everyone who's not terribly worried about privacy always uses the line 'if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about', but my line of thinking is not 'do i trust the government' it's 'do I have faith in all future forms of government who will have access to this data' Given how fast and lose I've seen the DODGE folks play with the data they have, absolutely not . I still shudder over the fact t…

People who are paying attention see that the government is changing rules daily. Feel safe today? Wait until tomorrow when Trump decides he wants to do something that you're in the way of.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#147

Post by thaumasiotes »

magicalhippo wrote: post #143
thaumasiotes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the Netherlands kept a list of everyone, and they specifically marked out all the Jews, but that doesn't constitute keeping a list of Jews?

It wasn't a list of Jews, it was a list of everyone from which Jews could be easily identified. The distinction is important in this context, since the purpose of collecting and keeping the data wasn't specifically to have a list of Jews handy. This is relevant to data collected by companies and governments today. Consider a list of children with their parent names and the parents' preferred pronouns. You don't have…

> The distinction is important in this context, since the purpose of collecting and keeping the data wasn't specifically to have a list of Jews handy.

How does that make the distinction important? The lesson to draw is "you shouldn't keep a list of Jews, whether you think you're doing it for good reasons or not". The list is a list regardless of whether you think calling it a list is fair in some abstract sense.

> You don't have a list of gays, but you have a list from which gays can be readily identified with high accuracy.

Well, you're almost right. Except of course that you do have a list of gays. That's why Grindr having Chinese ownership was seen as a national security risk.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#149

Post by expedition32 »

array_key_first wrote: post #122
tptacek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with what he just said?

That most people have a simplistic, naive, and child-like perspective of the world. One based on just-desserts, on causality, on fairness. You see, there are good people and bad people. Giving the good people more tools is always good, because they're good people. If you're a good person, you need not worry either. Bad things don't happen to good people. Cops are good guys, criminals are bad guys. The government figh…

We don't have a jury system in my country for the same reason we don't grab randos off the street to operate nuclear reactors.

Being a judge is an actual job that requires training and experience.

Ofcourse it makes court cases a lot more boring if you are dealing with someone who knows what they are doing.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#150

Post by expedition32 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #147
magicalhippo wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a list of Jews, it was a list of everyone from which Jews could be easily identified. The distinction is important in this context, since the purpose of collecting and keeping the data wasn't specifically to have a list of Jews handy. This is relevant to data collected by companies and governments today. Consider a list of children with their parent names and the parents' preferred pronouns. You don't have…

> The distinction is important in this context, since the purpose of collecting and keeping the data wasn't specifically to have a list of Jews handy. How does that make the distinction important? The lesson to draw is "you shouldn't keep a list of Jews, whether you think you're doing it for good reasons or not". The list is a list regardless of whether you think calling it a list is fair in some abstract sense. > Yo…

The Netherlands today is a secular country in which the government doesn't give a flying fuck about your religion or identity.

But the situation in 1940 was very different: religion permeated every fabric of society. Mind you the government simply took over the job of record keeping from the churches, temples and synagogues.

I am sure Jews today still keep lists about who is a Jew and so does every other religious denomination because such mundane information matters to them.

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