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2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

automobilemag.com

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Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#141

Post by Osmium »

cletus wrote: post #79

The Tesla Model S is a great-looking car but, unlike some, I still don't see electric cars as being the future. Batteries are still too heavy, take too long to charge, are too expensive and require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity. Of course, there can be and no doubt will be technological innovation in this space but (IMHO) the future…

There's no way a car running on a new, alternative fuel source (e.g. methane or ammonia) is anywhere remotely closer to commercial, viable reality than electric cars. It's a hard problem to crack, but we're close. Anything else is 20 years out at least.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#142

Post by haberman »

mibbitier wrote: post #101
revelation wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal combustion engines are not at all simple. Sleek animations might make it seem like that, but when you are blowing stuff up , that tends to complicate things. In comparison, electrical motors are extremely simple and maintenance-free. All while being on a level of efficiency that just can't be reached with a combustion engine.

Burning coal to make electricity, then transmitting that electricity all over the country, wasting some of it along the way... Then using that to charge a battery, then using that to power a motor. I'm not sure it sounds particularly efficient unless you completely ignore all the work that goes into making the electricity :/

Here in Seattle, we don't burn coal. Ok I lied, 0.52% of our energy does actually come from coal. But 96% of it is hydro and wind: http://www.seattle.gov/light/fuelmix/

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#143

Post by Osmium »

mibbitier wrote: post #104
jblow wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and on the battery chemistry issue, Teslas use Lithium-Ion batteries, just like we have been using in laptops for forever. They are not exotic.

You mean the ones that typically only last a year or 2?

There's a lot of clever engineering that can be done when your battery doesn't need to be small enough to fit inside a phone or a laptop.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#144

Post by mburns »

jellicle wrote: post #103
cletus wrote: post #79

The Tesla Model S is a great-looking car but, unlike some, I still don't see electric cars as being the future. Batteries are still too heavy, take too long to charge, are too expensive and require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity. Of course, there can be and no doubt will be technological innovation in this space but (IMHO) the future…

How's gasoline working out now in New Jersey? Not well. There is currently a massive amount of land and a massive amount of infrastructure (thousands and thousands of tankers, for one) devoted to making gasoline available on every corner, nearly worldwide. If a similar amount of land and infrastructure were devoted to, say, swappable electric batteries, electric cars would have no problems in the "long trip" departme…

And then you have to sell the public on why you raised gas prices to help push forward your liberal agenda.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#145

Post by pkulak »

cletus wrote: post #79

The Tesla Model S is a great-looking car but, unlike some, I still don't see electric cars as being the future. Batteries are still too heavy, take too long to charge, are too expensive and require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity. Of course, there can be and no doubt will be technological innovation in this space but (IMHO) the future…

Imagine if we were the other way around. Everyone was driving electric cars and someone was trying to get us on gas.

I charge my car every night. You're telling me I now have to drive to a "gas station" every time I need to recharge? And we need to ship gas all over the country now? And gas costs _how_ much!?

And then I also have to bring it into the shop every few months to "change the oil"?

And look at the thousands of moving parts! That thing is going to start breaking down after 5 years, tops. Look at all the scheduled maintenance? Shit, replacing just the timing belt will cost me thousands!

And if I turn it on in my garage it will literally kill me and my entire family? No other product I own is nearly that dangerous.

What a joke. I'm keeping my electric car.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#146

Post by kerryfalk »

jblow wrote: post #130
kerryfalk wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only electric vehicles start at 0 RPM. Normal combustion engines idle under 1,000 RPM and the M5 has a fairly flat torque curve for a naturally aspirated car with somewhere around 260lbs at idle. That's very good and about 50% of its peak torque. The M5s also have SMG which is a computer controlled manual transmission. No manually operated clutch. Even has a launch mode if you want the computer to control wheel spin…

My 2006 M3 had SMG and I didn't like it much. (Fine for highway driving, sucks for city street driving). Maybe the new one is better?

I'm not a fan of the SMG myself (or equivalents from other manufacturers) nor is anyone else I know. But it's not really because of any real performance metric. SMG is far better at changing gears than any of us mortals could accomplish. But it's just not fun.

If you didn't like yours for the same reason I don't know if you'd like the new iterations. You're still not doing the shifting yourself.

ps. Your project looks interesting and I signed up for the mailing list. The success page said an email had been sent but I haven't received anything. Not sure if there's a long delay or it's a bug.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#147

Post by DanEdge »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #43
salimmadjd wrote: post #31

Tesla is still a niche luxury car, and I still think they will not remain in business in their current form. Several top-name brands are hot on their heels which will put a lot of pressure in their customer acquisition prospects. As for the Automobile endorsement, I don't like how they are misleading consumers with their data. The test vs. M5 was designed to take account Tesla's sweet spot of performance, "...drag ra…

The M5 may beat the Tesla at 0-60 on paper (3.7 seconds vs 3.9), but in practice the Tesla will beat the M5. A 0-60 is measured from the time the car starts to move. If you measure from when the accelerator is depressed, the Tesla gains a huge advantage and will beat the M5. EDIT: Here's a 0-100 video: http://ca.autoblog.com/2012/10/09/sport-sedan-shootout-tesla... Now unless there's some tricks in the video, it's qu…

There's something very odd about that video. It looks like the M5 is driven off the line from tickover which is not how you would launch it in practice. C.f. http://youtu.be/E-xVVPO8L8s

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#148

Post by pirateking »

confluence wrote: post #114
cletus wrote: post #79

The Tesla Model S is a great-looking car but, unlike some, I still don't see electric cars as being the future. Batteries are still too heavy, take too long to charge, are too expensive and require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity. Of course, there can be and no doubt will be technological innovation in this space but (IMHO) the future…

You have literally no idea what you are talking about but that's OK because technology doesn't care about what you think - it just happens (cf. computer adoption, robotic automation, AI automation, cars, trains, trucks, looms, engines, planes, ships). ICE vehicles are relatively complex and not actually cheap going forwards. We're past peak oil and emissions are now being priced (CO2 pollution is no longer free). Tha…

I agree with your post and general outlook on electric vehicles - they are definitely the future.

However, I do not agree with Mr. Buffett's statement - if it were the case, no one would ever make a single statement.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#149

Post by Bud »

cletus wrote: post #79

The Tesla Model S is a great-looking car but, unlike some, I still don't see electric cars as being the future. Batteries are still too heavy, take too long to charge, are too expensive and require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity. Of course, there can be and no doubt will be technological innovation in this space but (IMHO) the future…

It's hard for me to even enumerate how many ways this is wrong. But I'll try.

Batteries are still too heavy

Changing. Rapidly.

take too long to charge

Improving, rapidly. Much more rapidly than, say, gas mileage.

(batteries) are too expensive

Sorry to be a broken record, but this too is improving rapidly.

require materials that in widespread use will probably become far more of a problem than fossil fuels in terms of scarcity

This assumes that battery tech will remain static, and use the same materials, forever. Bad assumption, there.

Or the amount of infrastructure retro-fitting that needs to happen (power to parking garages being just one).

This is already starting to happen and will only accelerate. I'm working on a gigantic office building project which will have hundreds of charging stations in its parking area. This will be the norm, very soon. And perhaps you forgot, but building tens of thousands of gas stations all over the place wasn't easy, either...nor is maintaining them. We already have a beefy electrical infrastructure; we just have to keep working on that.

Or ignoring issues or range and recharge times.

Tesla's range is already over 250 miles; this is getting very close to that of many gas guzzlers. And again, this is rapidly improving, even though we're not working very hard on it as a society. Imagine what would happen if we tried!

Power is not free. An electric vehicle still needs to get power from somewhere and that power requires all the normal transmission infrastructure.

Yeah, and we already have that infrastructure. By the way, gas isn't free, either. Nor is it nearly as efficient as electric power can be.

Someone brought up what's happening in NJ but if you had an electric car you'd be even more screwed. At least now you can transport gas to people.

Uh, you can transport electricity to people, too. We have power lines for that.

Seriously, out of cost, weight, range and charging time all of them need to get an order of magnitude better to even be on par with fuel-driven vehicles.

Er, no. Do you know what an order of magnitude IS? Cost: we're within a factor of 2-3 of this being affordable, even if you use the very expensive Tesla as your test case. Weight: Already at parity with many cars. Range: Already discussed above; near parity with many gas vehicles. Charging time: This doesn't have to get much better at all; you can recharge at night.

Re: 2013 Automobile of the Year: Tesla Model S

#150

Post by arethuza »

to3m wrote: post #75
kayoone wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point is to give an example how fast the Tesla really is, and it doesnt matter if its only faster in one area than a BMW M5, but the fact that it is even able to keep up with the pinnacle of pertrol performance sedans is very impressive!

The Tesla driver will probably suffer less from range anxiety, too.

Anyone worrying about range won't be driving a M5, they will have a 520d ED - which can probably do nearly a thousand miles on one tank.
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