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Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

tuananh.net

141–150 of 408 posts

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#141
post #17

> The ownership void: If the code is truly a “new” work created by a machine, it might technically be in the public domain the moment it’s generated, rendering the MIT license moot. How would that work? We still have no legal conclusion on whether AI model generated code, that is trained on all publicly available source (irrespective of type of license), is legal or not. IANAL but IMHO it is totally illegal as no per…

> how does that work

AI can't claim ownership, humans can't either as they haven't produced it. If there is guaranteed no one which can claim ownership it often seen as being in the public domain.

In general it is irrelevant what the copyright of the AI training data is. At least in the US judges have been relevant clear about that. (Except if the AI reproduced input data close to verbatim. _But in general we aren't speaking about AI being trained on a code base but an AI using/rewriting it_.)

(1): Which isn't the same as no one seems to know who has ownership. It also might be owned by no-one in the sense that no one can grant you can copyright permission (so opposite of public domain), but also no-one can sue (so de-facto public domain).

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#142
post #13
post #6

I like the idea of AI-generated ~code~ anything being public domain. Public data in, public domain out.

I don't think you can classify "public data in" as public domain. Public data could also include commercial licenses which forbid using it in any way other than what the license states. Just because the source is open for viewing does not necessarily mean it is OSL. That's the core issue here. All models are trained on ALL source code that is publicly available irrespective of how it was licensed. It is illegal but e…

> It is illegal

Only (?) in America. In the EU, scraping is legal by default unless explicitly opted out with machine-readable instructions like robots.txt. That covers "training input". For training output, the rule is: "if the output is unrecognizable to the input, the license of the input does not matter" (otherwise, any project X could sue project Y for copyright infringement even if the projects only barely resemble each other). The cases where companies actually got sued were where the output was a direct copy or repetition of the input, even if an LLM was involved.

There is, however, a larger philosophical divide between the US and the EU based on history and religion. The US philosophy is highly individualistic, capitalistic, and considers "first-order principles." Copyright is a "property right": "I own this string of bits, you used them, therefore you owe me" (principle of absolute ownership).

Continental philosophy is more social and considers "second-order / causal effects." Copyright is a "personality right" that exists within a social ecosystem. The focus is on the effect of the action rather than a singular principle like "intellectual property." If the new code provides a secondary benefit to society and doesn't "hurt" the original creator's unique intellectual stamp, the law is inclined to view it as a new work.

In terms of legal sociology, America and Britain are more "individual-property-atomistic" thanks to their Protestant heritage, focusing on the rights of the individual (sola me, and my property, and God). Meanwhile, Europe was, at least to a large part, Catholic (esp. France), which focuses more on works, results, and effects on society to determine morality. While the states are officially secular, the heritage of this echoes in different definitions of what is considered "legal" or "moral", depending on which side of the ocean you are on.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#143
If you don't understand the meaning of what a 'derived work' is then you should probably not be doing this kind of thing without a massive disclaimer and/or having your lawyer doing a review.

There is no such thing as the output of an LLM as a 'new' work for copyright purposes, if it were then it would be copyrightable and it is not. The term of art is 'original work' instead of 'new'.

The bigger issue will be using tools such as these and then humans passing off the results as their own because they believe that their contribution to the process whitewashes the AI contributions to the point that they rise to the status of original works. "The AI only did little bits" is not a very strong defense though.

If you really want to own the work-product simply don't use AI during the creation. You can use it for reviews, but even then you simply do not copy-and-paste from the AI window to the text you are creating (whether code or ordinary prose isn't really a difference).

I've seen a copyright case hinge on 10 lines of unique code that were enough of a fingerprint to clinch the 'derived work' assessment. Prize quote by the defendant: "We stole it, but not from them".

There is a very blurry line somewhere in the contents of any large LLM: would a model be able to spit out the code that it did if it did not have access to similar samples and to what degree does that output rely on one or more key examples without which it would not be able to solve the problem you've tasked it with?

The lower boundary would be the most minimal training set required to do the job, and then to analyze what the key corresponding bits were from the inputs that cause the output to be non-functional if they were dropped from the training set.

The upper boundary would be where completely non-related works and general information rather than other parties copyrighted works would be sufficient to do the creation.

The easiest way to loophole this is to copyright the prompt, not the work product of the AI, after all you should at least be able to write the prompt. Then others can re-create it too, but that's usually not the case with these AI products, they're made to be exact copies of something that already exists and the prompt will usually reflect that.

That's why I'm a big fan of mandatory disclosure of whether or not AI was used in the production of some piece of text, for one it helps to establish whether or not you should trust it, who is responsible for it and whether the person publishing it has the right to claim authorship.

Using AI as a 'copyright laundromat' is not going to end up well.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#144

I am pretty sure this article is predicated on a misunderstanding of what a "clean room" implementation means. It does not mean "as long as you never read the original code, whatever you write is yours". If you had a hermetically sealed code base that just happened to coincide line for line with the codebase for GCC, it would still be a copy. Traditionally, a human-driven clean room implementation would have a vanish…

the author speaks about code which is syntactically completely different but semantically does the same i.e. a re-implementation which can either - be still derived work, i.e. seen as you just obfuscating a copyright violation - be a new work doing the same nothing prevents an AI from producing a spec based on a API, API documentation and API usage/fuzzing and then resetting the AI and using that spec to produce a re…

No, that depends on whether or not the AI work product rests on key contributions to its training set without which it would not be able to the the work, see other comment. In that case it looks like 'a new work doing the same' but it still a derived work.

Ted Nelson was years ahead of the future where we really needed his Xanadu to keep track of fractional copyright. Likely if we had such a mechanism, and AI authors respected it then we would be able to say that your work is derived from 3000 other original works and that you added 6 lines of new code.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#145
post #17

> The ownership void: If the code is truly a “new” work created by a machine, it might technically be in the public domain the moment it’s generated, rendering the MIT license moot. How would that work? We still have no legal conclusion on whether AI model generated code, that is trained on all publicly available source (irrespective of type of license), is legal or not. IANAL but IMHO it is totally illegal as no per…

"We still have no legal conclusion on whether AI model generated code, that is trained on all publicly available source (irrespective of type of license), is legal or not." I think it will depend on the way HOW the AI arrived to the new code. If it was using the original source code then it probably is guilty-by-association. But in theory an AI model could also generate a rewrite if being fed intermediary data not ba…

> "We still have no legal conclusion on whether AI model generated code, that is trained on all publicly available source (irrespective of type of license), is legal or not."

it depends on the country you are in

but overall in the US judges have mostly consistently ruled it as legal

and this is extremely unlikely to change/be effectively interpreted different

but where things are more complex is:

- model containing training data (instead of generic abstractions based on it), determined by weather or not it can be convinced to produce close to verbatim output of the training data the discussion is about

- model producing close to verbatim training data

the later seems to be mostly? always? be seen as copyright violation, with the issue that the person who does the violation (i.e. uses the produced output) might not known

the former could mean that not just the output but the model itself can count as a form of database containing copyright violating content. In which case they model provider has to remove it, which is technically impossible(1)... The pain point with that approach is that it will likely kill public models, while privately kept models will for every case put in a filter and _claim_ to have removed it and likely will get away with it. So while IMHO it should be a violation conceptually, it probably is better if it isn't.

But also the case the original article refers to is more about models interacting/using with code base then them being trained on.

(1): For LLMs, it is very much removable for knowledge based used by LLMs.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#146
post #9

That code is still LGPL, it doesn't matter what some release engineer writes in the release notes on Github. All original authors and copyright holders must have explicitly agreed to relicense under a different license, otherwise the code stays LGPL licensed. Also the mentioned SCOTUS decision is concerned with authorship of generative AI products. That's very different of this case. Here we're talking about a tool t…

iff it went through the full clean room rewrite just using AI then no, it's de-facto public domain (but also it probably didn't do so)

iff it is a complete new implementation with completely different internal then it could also still be no LGPL even if produced by a person with in depth knowledge. Copyright only cares if you "copied" something not if you had "knowledge" or if it "behaves the same". So as long as it's distinct enough it can still be legally fine. The "full clean room" requirement is about "what is guaranteed to hold up in front of a court" not "what might pass as non-derivative but with legal risk".

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#147
post #17

> The ownership void: If the code is truly a “new” work created by a machine, it might technically be in the public domain the moment it’s generated, rendering the MIT license moot. How would that work? We still have no legal conclusion on whether AI model generated code, that is trained on all publicly available source (irrespective of type of license), is legal or not. IANAL but IMHO it is totally illegal as no per…

> how does that work AI can't claim ownership, humans can't either as they haven't produced it. If there is guaranteed no one which can claim ownership it often seen as being in the public domain. In general it is irrelevant what the copyright of the AI training data is. At least in the US judges have been relevant clear about that. (Except if the AI reproduced input data close to verbatim. _But in general we aren't…

Humans can't claim ownership, but they are still liable for the product of their bot. That's why MS was so quick to indemnify their users, they know full well that it is going to be super hard to prove that there is a key link to some original work.

The main analogy is this one: you take a massive pile of copyrighted works, cut them up into small sections and toss the whole thing in a centrifuge, then, when prompted to produce a work you use a statistical method to pull pieces of those copyrighted works out of the centrifuge. Sometimes you may find that you are pulling pieces out of the laundromat in the order in which they went in, which after a certain number of tokens becomes a copyright violation.

This suggests there are some obvious ways in which AI companies can protect themselves from claims of infringement but as far as I'm aware not a single one has protections in place to ensure that they do not materially reproduce any fraction of the input texts other than that they recognize prompts asking it to do so.

So it won't produce the lyrics of 'Let it be'. But they'll be happy to write you mountains of prose that strongly resembles some of the inputs.

The fact that they are not doing that tells you all you really need to know: they know that everything that their bots spit out is technically derived from copyrighted works. They also have armies of lawyers and technical arguments to claim the opposite.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even matter if the LLM was exposed during training. A clean-room rewrite can be done by having one LLM create a highly detailed analysis of the target (reverse engineering if it's in binary form), and providing that analysis to another LLM to base an implementation.

Why does it need 2 LLMs? LLMs aren't people. I'm not even sure that it needs to be done in 2 seperate contexts

It doesn't have to be 2 LLMs, but nowadays there's LLM auto-memory, which means it could be argued that the same LLM doing both analysis and reimplementation isn't "clean". And the entire purpose behind the "clean" is to avoid that argument.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#149
post #99
post #9

That code is still LGPL, it doesn't matter what some release engineer writes in the release notes on Github. All original authors and copyright holders must have explicitly agreed to relicense under a different license, otherwise the code stays LGPL licensed. Also the mentioned SCOTUS decision is concerned with authorship of generative AI products. That's very different of this case. Here we're talking about a tool t…

If anything, the SCOTUS decision would seem to imply that generative AI transformations produce no additional creative contribution and therefore the original copyright holder has all rights to any derived AI works. (IANAL)

that is a very good formulation of what I have been trying to say

but also probably not fully right

as far as I understand they avoid the decision of weather an AI can produce creative work by saying that the neither the AI nor it's owner/operator can claim ownership of copyright (which makes it de-facto public domain)

this wouldn't change anything wrt. derived work still having the original authors copyright

but it could change things wrt. parts in the derived work which by themself are not derived

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how does that work AI can't claim ownership, humans can't either as they haven't produced it. If there is guaranteed no one which can claim ownership it often seen as being in the public domain. In general it is irrelevant what the copyright of the AI training data is. At least in the US judges have been relevant clear about that. (Except if the AI reproduced input data close to verbatim. _But in general we aren't…

Humans can't claim ownership, but they are still liable for the product of their bot. That's why MS was so quick to indemnify their users, they know full well that it is going to be super hard to prove that there is a key link to some original work. The main analogy is this one: you take a massive pile of copyrighted works, cut them up into small sections and toss the whole thing in a centrifuge, then, when prompted…

> Humans can't claim ownership, but they are still liable for the product of their bot.

sure,

but that is completely unrelated to this discussion

which is about AI using code as input to produce similar code as output

not about AI being trained on code

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