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The Misuses of the University

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Re: The Misuses of the University

#141
Fun read focused on the financial misallocations and warped sense of priority of the administration. The reason, of course, is that the university has lost its way, and if you want to know what their functional aim is, as chaotic as it may be, ask "who benefits?".

Of course, the university lost its way quite some time ago. Indeed, education in general has. But if we focus on the university, the basic question we should be asking - one that should inform all of our decisions and actions - is "for the sake of what?".

What is the university for?

If you ask most people, perhaps especially since the War when university attendance exploded, the answer will likely be "to get a job". So, the university, it is supposed, is primarily an institution centered around career training and preparation. Indeed, if you grew up during the last half century, you might have grown accustomed to hearing a certain negative encouragement to attend university, namely, that if you wish to avoid working at McDonald's - which is taken to be the worst fate imaginable - then you must have a college degree. This was an unquestioned iron rule that insinuated a certain conception of the primary purpose of unviersity education. In communities dominated by blue collar workers, the university was sold as one's ticket out of the ostensibly dreary world of manual labor into the ranks of the white collar professional classes.

(Gen Z begs to differ; interest in the so-called trades has increased by 1500%.)

Now, assuming university education is job training, we might wish to ask whether they are effective at this task, especially given the astronomical costs of tuition to which students are yoked after graduation. Here, the answer is far from clear and one suspects negative for most graduates.

Even so, the concept of university-as-job-training-center itself is a debasement of the original purpose of the university. The primary purpose was historically embodied by the liberal arts, which is to say, the free arts. These are opposed to the so-called servile arts. Guess into which "job training" fits best. The liberal arts as originally taught were not the liberal arts as we imagine them today. The foundation of what you might call undergraduate education was the trivium and the quadrivium. The first taught grammar, logic, and rhetoric in order to prepare students to be able to reason, evaluate arguments, and to make arguments themselves. It freed a person by developing basic intellectually competence. In the second, students were taught arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. Despite what are for us today some strange names, these prepared the student for quantitative reasoning: quantity as such, quantity in space, quantity in time, and quantity in space-time. From there, students continued onward to study philosophy, medicine, theology, law, and so on. The purpose of these liberal arts was to produce a free man, free because he is enabled to pursue the truth.

Even the so-called research university demotes the primary function of the university by making pedagogy a kind of afterthought or concession. Eduating students is secondary; the primary aim of faculty is research.

Of course, people used to attend university at the age of 14, the age at which we typically enter secondary school, so the boundaries have shifted, but I would nonetheless argue that education - and especially the university - should return to its roots as an intellectual community of faculty and students oriented toward producing free human beings capable of seeking the truth. Research should take place in dedicated institutes. Students are a long way from research anyway, which in any case tends to be specialized. The trades should be taught in trade schools and institutions focused on producing competence in those areas. Institutional function should be clear so that an institution can acheive its end successfully instead of trying to be everything and nothing. Focused study of specialized academic fields should be postponed until postgraduate study.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#142
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP invented some sort of conspiracy theory that doesn't really seem like it's worth discussing, whether it happens a lot or not in reality. Whether you believe what he said or not, my questions remain.

The thing I described happened about 6 months ago.

Can you provide a link, rather than extremely vague accusations?

Re: The Misuses of the University

#143
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (and I believe the person I responded to) were talking about the comment above yours, which was a statement that Hopkins basically sells control of its research outcomes to donors. Your question didn't bother me in the least, but I don't see why people are so surprised that a school or any other organization would accept millions and millions of cash to upgrade their surroundings.

That's fair. I'm not surprised per se, I think the point is about the strings attached to accepting that money. At least that's how I've been reading this thread.

That is their point, and mine is that it's baseless speculation that is almost certainly inaccurate, probably originating from a similarly uninformed and angry internal source to the one that produced the article in question.

I'm not saying it can't happen, or even that it's never happened, but I see no evidence from personal experience or news in academia that would indicate it's anything other than extraordinarily rare at most, and it certainly shouldn't be assumed to be the case for all donations unless proven otherwise.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#144
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want them to go back to being finishing schools for the wealthy, as they were before Hopkins (funnily enough) founded the first institute in the US that would be seen as a form of a modern university today? For people who aren't financially independent, education is a means to an end. Pretending that's not the case or worse, shouldn't be the case, is absurd to ask of anyone running a school and highly damaging to…

You're putting words in my mouth. I merely pointed out that they have a very confused mission thus I think it is not surprising that there is dysfunction. We have vocational trade schools. We have professional guild schools (medical, dentistry, etc). At least some subset of students attends school with the intention of becoming professional researchers (ie pursuing a PhD, then a postdoc, then finally general employme…

> You're putting words in my mouth. I merely pointed out that they have a very confused mission thus I think it is not surprising that there is dysfunction.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I don't see what other conclusion can be drawn from your statement.

> We have vocational trade schools. We have professional guild schools (medical, dentistry, etc). At least some subset of students attends school with the intention of becoming professional researchers (ie pursuing a PhD, then a postdoc, then finally general employment).

> I think it would be reasonable to expect undergraduate institutions to set unambiguous goals for each program. Students should know what they are signing up for. It would be fine to graduate with a certain amount of time spent explicitly on general education and a certain amount spent explicitly on vocational training with a specific target.

I agree that undergraduate institutions should be required to set unambiguous goals for each program, but what are done with the many, many attendees who have no goals for themselves beyond "go to college and get a job when I'm done"? I think there is value in having these multi-faceted institutions that are a combination of finishing school, classical academic study, and vocational training that can (and do) produce sufficiently educated and mature adults who can independently function in society.

That is the mission of the undergraduate portion of the Arts and Sciences school at basically every college/university. Professional schools have a slightly more specific mission.

> If you claim that education is a means to an end then what of (for example) history majors?

Excellent question, and it's one for the history department to answer. Maybe things stay as they are now and it's a home for the many people who don't have specific career goals while attending college, and that is their goal.

> I think the bachelors diploma itself is what became a means to an end much to the detriment of "pure" academia.

"Pure" academia only exists for those with a patron (which could be themselves), which is non-existent at any meaningful scale.

> The CS program at my undergrad spent time teaching us how to use version control. That's fantastic for a professional programmer but how does that have anything to do with CS as an academic pursuit? You can literally do much (perhaps all) of actual CS with nothing more than a pen and paper.

Good for them, because anyone applying their CS knowledge in any capacity needs to know that.

If you want to go major in purely theoretical CS at a place that offers only courses that are effectively a specialization of a math major, there is value in it but the department offering them has to answer the same questions as the history department.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#145
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities are only allowed to include indirect expenses that are related to the research in question, not all expenses incurred by the university (such as a student center, dorm, stadium, etc.).

Well many buildings that are donated have research conducted within them. Not always a lot, but a large building is going to have plenty of uses. Eg stadiums often have medical research that is being conducted within them.

Then that portion of that building could be counted towards indirect costs for that research, and the university is better off than if they had paid for the building as well as paying for the upkeep and those cost savings can be passed along to taxpayers.

Your imagined scenario doesn't apply to this very real example in the article in question though.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#146
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting words in my mouth. I merely pointed out that they have a very confused mission thus I think it is not surprising that there is dysfunction. We have vocational trade schools. We have professional guild schools (medical, dentistry, etc). At least some subset of students attends school with the intention of becoming professional researchers (ie pursuing a PhD, then a postdoc, then finally general employme…

> You're putting words in my mouth. I merely pointed out that they have a very confused mission thus I think it is not surprising that there is dysfunction. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I don't see what other conclusion can be drawn from your statement. > We have vocational trade schools. We have professional guild schools (medical, dentistry, etc). At least some subset of students attends school wi…

It seems we largely agree. For example I wasn't criticizing the CS program at my undergrad, simply observing the mismatch between the label on the tin and what was actually inside.

Observations of inconsistencies, dysfunctions, and similar are not necessarily calls for any particular course of action.

> I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I don't see what other conclusion can be drawn from your statement.

I merely observed that many of the issues people point out can be traced back (at least IMO) to having a set of confused and inconsistent goals. I wouldn't expect it to be a particularly controversial observation to anyone who's had significant contact with US academia within the past few decades.

> what are done with the many, many attendees who have no goals for themselves beyond "go to college and get a job when I'm done"?

They probably don't belong there. Most of them only attend because you need a diploma to land a job. Not because the education is particularly useful to the job, but rather because of what diplomas historically signaled about a candidate before everyone had them. Now it seems to just be a holdover (ie we require them because we've always required them and at this point everyone worthwhile has one). At least that's my (admittedly quite cynical) view.

I'm all for a more educated populace but if that's what we want then we should directly implement that.

I notice that you didn't address my remark about "adult daycare service". The presence of directionless "students" attending only to tick a box has serious negative impacts on the rest of the system. Add in student loans that can't be discharged and you've created an absolutely bizarre and (IMO counterproductive) set of economic incentives.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#147
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well many buildings that are donated have research conducted within them. Not always a lot, but a large building is going to have plenty of uses. Eg stadiums often have medical research that is being conducted within them.

Then that portion of that building could be counted towards indirect costs for that research, and the university is better off than if they had paid for the building as well as paying for the upkeep and those cost savings can be passed along to taxpayers. Your imagined scenario doesn't apply to this very real example in the article in question though.

More often than not, the building is unnecessary. I'm sure the University s fine having a fancy new building, especially if the upkeep is offset by the American taxpayer.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I was astonished to learn from my friends that they saw not one, not two, but a percentage of young people who went through colleges but still don't know how to do simple things like printing from a desktop or using a word processor. My understanding is that they are so used to mobiles and pads, that their parents actually did not buy a computer for them (sometimes it is ignorance and sometimes it…

What don't you like about the linux cli? is it a UNIX thing or a GNU thing that you don't like? What makes CP/M like systems (CP/M, DOS, OS/2) better in that regard?. Personally I strongly recommend the Pi 400 for a first computer. Of course, that all depends on the child of course but the Pi 400 and 500 desktop kits are really great and the Pi 400 is cheap enough to not care that much about it breaking while still f…

Now that I think about it, actually I don’t have anything against Linux cli. After all it is my daily driver. I just want to jump into QBASIC and show him how I program simple stuffs. In fact, DOSbian is from Ubuntu AFAIK.

Re: The Misuses of the University

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What don't you like about the linux cli? is it a UNIX thing or a GNU thing that you don't like? What makes CP/M like systems (CP/M, DOS, OS/2) better in that regard?. Personally I strongly recommend the Pi 400 for a first computer. Of course, that all depends on the child of course but the Pi 400 and 500 desktop kits are really great and the Pi 400 is cheap enough to not care that much about it breaking while still f…

Now that I think about it, actually I don’t have anything against Linux cli. After all it is my daily driver. I just want to jump into QBASIC and show him how I program simple stuffs. In fact, DOSbian is from Ubuntu AFAIK.

I know raspbian comes with scratch which is how I first got into programming (and still mess with from time to time, made a bf interpreter once). For the basic concepts i feel its easier for a little kid to grasp since the sytax is graphical
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