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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#141

Post by [deleted] »

iamnothere wrote: post #44
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

[deleted]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#142

Post by xinayder »

DeathArrow wrote: post #107

30 years of internet were possible with relative freedom, without spying and surveillance. All of the sudden it's not possible. Governments recycle "Think of the children" mantra and they are again after terrorists and bad guys.

Mandatory age check is not going to reduce the number of criminals online. Period.

We should focus on teaching parents how to educate their children properly, and teach children how to safely browse the internet and how to avoid common scams and pitfalls.

I played Roblox when I was a teenager and all the time my aunt told me to be careful of who I talked to online, as they could be a pedo. Even though there wasn't a constant monitoring from my parents or family, her words were repeated many times that I actually thought 5 times before sharing any kind of personal information online, back then.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#143

Post by otterley »

phoronixrly wrote: post #93
otterley wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you’re young, the overwhelming and irrepressible desire to overcome society's proscriptions to satisfy your intellectual and sexual curiosity is natural and understandable. The open Internet made that easier than ever, and I enjoyed that freedom when I was younger—though I can’t say it was totally harmless. When you’re older and have children—especially preteens and teenagers—you want those barriers up, because…

> When you’re older and have children—especially preteens and teenagers—you want those barriers up, because you’ve seen just how fucked up some children can get after overexposure to unhealthy materials. You mean that you shirk your responsibility to teach your child how to protect themself on the Internet, and instead trust the faceless corp to limit their access at the cost of everyone's privacy? How does this make…

If a business demands you reveal your identity as a condition of use, and you would rather maintain your anonymity, you can choose not to use that business. It's not like these companies are providing essential services necessary for life.

Heck, you can't even obtain housing -- which is an essential service -- without having to provide identity in most cases.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#144

Post by mcmcmc »

coffeefirst wrote: post #94
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

There’s some nuance here. Realizing that much of the internet is totally toxic to children now and should have a means of keeping them out is distinct from agreeing to upload ID to everything. A better implementation would be to have a device/login level parental control setting that passed age restriction signals via browsers and App Stores. This is both a simpler design and privacy friendly.

I like this take. Ultimately the only people responsible for what kids consume are the parents. It’s on them to control their kids’ internet access, the government has no place in it. If you want to punish someone for a child being exposed to inappropriate content, punish the negligence of the parents.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#145

Post by barfiure »

The internet isn’t the same as it was when we were growing up, unfortunately. I miss the days of cruising DynamicHTML while playing on GameSpy but… yeah. It became an absolute clusterfuck and I’m not surprised they now want to enforce age restrictions.

Maybe TBL is right and we need a new internet? I don’t have the answer here, but this one is too commercialized and these companies are very hawkish.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#146

Post by zug_zug »

delusional wrote: post #119
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

> there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Is that really evidence of astroturfing? If we're in the middle of an ongoing political debate, it doesn't seem that far fetched for me that people reach similar conclusions. What you're hearing then isn't "astro-turfing" but one coalition, of potential…

Well the hard thing about astroturfing is that only the people running the platform have the hard data to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt.

But I don't think we need 99.99% confidence -- isn't even acknowledged that 30% of twitter is bots or something? I think it's safe to conclude there's astroturfing on any significant political issue.

Also as far as documented cases, there were documented cases of astroturfing around fracking [1], or pesticides [2]

1. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2057047320969435 2. https://www.corywatson.com/blog/monsanto-downplay-roundup-ri...

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#147

Post by edgyquant »

iamnothere wrote: post #50
Levitz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astroturfing was already a thing. Identification fixes nothing here, you log with your account, plug in the AI. The problems with social media have nothing to do with ID and everything to do with godawful incentives, the argument seems to be that it's a large price to pay but that it's worth it. Worth it for what? The end result is absolutely terrible either way

Astroturfing will still be a thing after ID. What, you think the government is going to go after their own bot armies?

I think it would be a lot more difficult for anyone to do and it isn’t like people will be using government platforms at least not in the west

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#148

Post by aqme28 »

If we're going to do this at all, it should be on the device, not the website/app. Parents flag their child's device or browser as under 18, and websites/apps follow suit. Parents get the control they're looking for, while service providers don't have to verify or store IDs. I guess it's just more difficult to pressure big dogs like google/apple/mozilla for this than pornhub and discord.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#150

Post by phendrenad2 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #95
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

> Governments (and a few companies) really want this. The cynic in me fears they don't want a privacy-preserving solution, which blinds them to 'who'. Because that would satisfy parents worried about their kids and many privacy conscious folks. Rather, they want a blank check to blackmail or imprison only their opponents.

I think Larry (not, not that Larry, the other one) spilled the beans in 2024:

"Citizens will be on their best behavior, because we’re constantly recording and reporting everything that is going on" - Larry Ellison

(I seem to recall from the context of the quote, he isn't saying this is the future he wants, but it's a future he's not particularly opposed to)

But the real threat is "accidental" database leaks from private websites. Let's say you live in a state where abortion isn't legal, and you sign up for a web forum where people discuss getting out-of-state abortions. As soon as that website is required to collect real names (which it will be), it becomes unusable, because nobody can risk getting doxxed.

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