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Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

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141–150 of 328 posts

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#141
post #17

This is all basically a textbook example of irrational market decisions. There’s clearly a bubble and not enough money coming in to pay for the AI bonanza. It’s building materials being in short supply when there’s obviously more houses than buyers. That’s just masked at the moment because of all the capital being pumped in to cover for the lack of actual revenue to pay for everything. The structural mismatch at the…

> in a few years folks will be coming up with creative ideas for cheap storage and GPUs flooding the market

COVID was six years ago. In that time, GPU prices haven't gone down (and really have only increased). Count me skeptical that there will be a flood of cheap components.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are indeed planning for more fabs, in order to meet volumes. Last week: “TSMC's board approves $45 billion spending package on new fabs” https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/ts...

Silicon Valley is arguing that TSMC isn't investing enough. They should be investing hundreds of billions to build fabs, like how big tech is investing in the AI buildout. $45 billion for new fabs is peanuts compared to Amazon's $200b and Google's $180b investment in 2026. Can't really blame TSMC though. It takes years for fabs to go from plan to first wafer. By the time new fabs go online, demand might not be there.…

"Silicon Valley" doesn't get to make the decision unless they are willing to send some of those hundreds of billions to TSMC up front. (TSMC isn't going to want future promises of business either since those are worth very little.)

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#143
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not an easy fix. Manufacturers don’t have a good pulse on long term demand. The he capex to spin up a new manufacturing plant is significant. Especially with the recency of Covid where some folks did get caught with their pants down and over invested during the huge demand boom. I don’t quite follow the narrative like yours about nation states and investors. There is certainly an industrial bubble going on an…

Smart manufacturers will sell 'hard drive futures'. Ie. "Give us $100/drive now for 100k drives for delivery in march 2028". These contracts are then transferrable. The manufacturer can start work on a factory knowing they'll get paid to produce the drives. If the AI boom comes to an end, the manufacturer is still going to get paid for their factory, and if the AI company wants to recoup costs they could try to sell…

That only works out if there are enough investors willing to pay for those futures. If the new factory can make a billion drives but they only have 2 of those futures contracts sold (that is 200k drives) they don't build the factory. Remember too if they sell those contacts they are on the hook to deliver - if it is just investors they will accept the street value of 100k drives in 2028 but some of the people might be buyers demanding physical goods.

Every year a few farmers realize they are contracted to deliver more grain than they have in their bins and so have to buy some grain from someone else (often at a loss) just to deliver it. This isn't a common problem but it happens (most often the farmer is using their insurance payout to buy the grain - snip a very large essay on the complexities of this)

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#144
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's clearly easy/irrational money distorting the markets here. No, I think it is real demand. AI will cause shortages in everything from GPUs to CPUs, RAM, storage, networking, fiber, etc because of real demand. The physical world can't keep up with AI progress. Hence, shortages. AI simply increases computer use by magnitudes. Now you can suddenly use Seedance 2.0 to make CGI that would have cost tens of millions…

> The only durable moats will be compute, energy, and data "Compute" is capital investment; normal and comprehensible, but on a huge scale. "Data" is .. stolen? That feels like a problem which has been dodged but will not remain solved forever, as everyone goes shields-up against the scrapers. "Energy" was a serious global problem before AI. All economic growth is traded off against future global temperature increase…

one.. fully autonomous, self improving, replicating, general intelligence.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn’t if the demand is real or not (supplies are low, so demand must exist). The question is if the demand curve has permanently shifted, or is this a short-term issue. No one builds new capacity in response to short term changes, because you’ll have difficulty recouping the capital expense. If AI will permanently cause an increase in hard drives over the current growth curve, then WD, et al will build n…

My post argues that the demand has permanently shifted. By the way, plenty of people on HN and Reddit ask if the demand is real or not. They all think there's some collusion to keep the AI bubble going by all the companies. They don't believe AI is that useful today.

> My post argues that the demand has permanently shifted

The time horizon for this is murky at best. This is something you think, but can’t know. But, you’re putting money behind it, so if you’re right, you’ll make a good profit!

But for the larger companies (like WD), over building capacity can be a big problem. They can’t plan factory expansion based on what might be a short term bubble. That’s how companies go out of business. There is plenty to suggest that you’re right, that AI will cause permanently increased demand for computing/storage resources. Because it is useful and does consume and produce a lot of new data and media.

But I’m still skeptical.

The massive increase in spending can’t be sustainable. We can’t continue to see the AI beast at this rate and still have other devices. Silicon wafer fabs can’t be built on demand and take time. SSD/HD factories take time. I think we are seeing an expansion to see who the big players will be in the next 3-5 years. Once that order has been established, then I think we will fall back to more sustainable rates of demand. This isn’t collusion, it’s just market dynamics at play in a common market. Sadly, we are all part of the same pool and so everything is expensive for all of us. At some point though, the AI money will dry up or get more expensive. Then I think we’ll see a reversion back to “normal” demand, maybe slightly elevated, but not the crazy jump we’ve seen for the past two years.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#146
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon Valley is arguing that TSMC isn't investing enough. They should be investing hundreds of billions to build fabs, like how big tech is investing in the AI buildout. $45 billion for new fabs is peanuts compared to Amazon's $200b and Google's $180b investment in 2026. Can't really blame TSMC though. It takes years for fabs to go from plan to first wafer. By the time new fabs go online, demand might not be there.…

"Silicon Valley" doesn't get to make the decision unless they are willing to send some of those hundreds of billions to TSMC up front. (TSMC isn't going to want future promises of business either since those are worth very little.)

I don't disagree. I wrote the top comment here basically saying the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46764223

If big tech prepays for the entire fab, I think TSMC would do it.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#147
Great. I’ve just returned a WD drive to Amazon after it arrived crushed in a torn-open paper bag.

The replacement arrived also in a paper bag and went straight back, this time for a refund.

I guess I should have kept that one and hoped for the best.

Good alternatives? I’ve only recently been enlightened on how profoundly sh__ty SSD is for long-term storage and I have a whole lot of images my parents took traveling the last few years of their lives.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#148
post #65
post #49

What are companies needing all of these hard drives for? I understand their need for memory, and boot. But storing text training data and text conversations isn't that space intensive. There's a few companies doing video models, so I can see how that takes a tremendous amount of space. Is it just that?

I am surprised by that too. I thought everyone moved to SDDs or NVMe ? I was toying with getting a 2T HDD for a BSD system I have, I guess not now :)

Everyone moved to SDDs or NVMe. If you're right, that includes manufacturers. HDDs still have advantages over SSDs for specific needs, like more reliable long-term unelectrified storage. It's also possible that the high price of SSDs made HDDs an option again.

Re: Thanks a lot, AI: Hard drives are sold out for the year, says WD

#150
post #147

Great. I’ve just returned a WD drive to Amazon after it arrived crushed in a torn-open paper bag. The replacement arrived also in a paper bag and went straight back, this time for a refund. I guess I should have kept that one and hoped for the best. Good alternatives? I’ve only recently been enlightened on how profoundly sh__ty SSD is for long-term storage and I have a whole lot of images my parents took traveling th…

I'm sure Amazon isn't the only shop that delivers to your area
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