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A Programmer's Loss of Identity

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Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#141

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #54
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

> when it was seen as low-status profession in the late 80s. I don't remember this at all . I became a professional programmer in 1987, but perhaps it was the fact that I went directly to Unix, did not pass go, did not collect $200 and worked entirely on systems programming that helped skip any of the "low-status" of people doing RDBMS/forms work ?

At least in pop culture in the late '80s and early '90s, being into computers was for asocial dorks and other unflattering nerd stereotypes. It was really the rise of the Internet and dotcom boom in the late 90s where [EDIT] owning a computer became unavoidable and the first of the software industry billionaires started seeping into the public consciousness that being a computer nerd became respectable.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#142

Post by kh_hk »

visarga wrote: post #34
smartmic wrote: post #29

> For the first time in my life, I’m suddenly wary of meeting other "computer programmers" in the wild. I feel like there’s a decent chance we won’t actually have much in common, let alone values or morality. Maybe the social group the author is referring to has split up (forked)? For example, I wouldn't call anyone producing vibe coded AI stuff a "programmer". That noun will be reserved for the original group.

> I wouldn't call anyone producing vibe coded AI stuff a "programmer" How about "software developer"?

Prompting AI feels a bit like that feeling I had when I was copypasting random javascript and java applets for my first website. The website had MIDI, a scrolling status bar on the bottom, particles that followed the mouse, you name it. Never understood any of it, nor made me deep dive because it was too complicated. But then at some age I reached out for fundamentals and that's when I started building things.

All this to say, no, software developer probably not. Script kiddie?

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#143

Post by larodi »

Im only eager to understand has the Izkustvelina already replaced me in the architect role. At times I like to think that building physical prototypes is still a thing, but then reading Quanta and how those guys hack matter, Im starting to not be entirely convinced 3D and who-knows-how-many-D printing is going to literally end life. And is close, so brace :D

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#144

Post by restalis »

fcarraldo wrote: post #26
softwaredoug wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last few decades, we went from a small handful of programming languages / libraries to a massive cambrian explosion from Github-fueled open source. Everyone's choice of Javascript framework became a dumb pissing contest and source of identity. A cudgel used at meetings to look down on some other way of doing things. I hope AI liberates us from that dumb facade of pretend innovation. In some ways, us programmer…

100%. A lot of these AI anxiety driven odes to the loss of craft have me wondering whether anyone cares about the value being provided to the user (or the business), which is the part that is actually your job. Elegant, well-written and technically sound projects will continue to exist, but I’ve seen too many “well crafted” implementations of such technically vexing features as “fetching data and returning it” that w…

"I’ve seen too many «well crafted» implementations of such technically vexing features as «fetching data and returning it» that were so overengineered that it should have been considered theft of company money."

This judgement has merit. However, over the years I got to perceive that over-engineering tendency to be the manifestation of exploratory spirit in one's craft. This is how the Unix got to be created at Bell Labs. To their managers, Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie worked on programs like the "ed" editor, thus they cared about "value being provided to the user (or the business)". What was later officially named Unix was not pitched as an operating system, but instead framed mostly just a needed way to organize the growing set of utilities, among other things (i.e. as a footnote). What are the over-engineered bits (and the related gained experience) in a given project may become useful for something else. People (tend to) do this kind of stuff. But should they be blamed, considering the enticing promise of growth and development of new technologies, practiced by employers themselves, as part of recruitment game?

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#145

Post by [deleted] »

iberator wrote: post #48
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

I lost my job as a programmer and I think it's over for me. No, you will not hack the device drivers in the basement but you're gonna be flipping burgers and out of cash or energy for anything else. Worst thing: you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers without experience or young age... Once you are out of the field, and your money is gone: suddenly you are useless, old trash. No one even wants to employ ex p…

[deleted]

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#146

Post by jongjong »

philipwhiuk wrote: post #37
jongjong wrote: post #31

For me it's weird because I was obsessed with software architecture. At university, I majored in software design. I was obsessed with UMl diagrams, sequence diagrams and architectural philosophies like loose coupling and high cohesion... I went to uni, majored in software design. My dream position was software architect... But then it's like the software architect role got phased out completely soon after I graduated…

> But then it's like the software architect role got phased out completely soon after I graduated. The radical ideology that software architecture doesn't matter started becoming mainstream. I don't think that's true. What I do think is there's not historically been space for junior software architects. It's long been seen as the senior role you graduate to, not a position for a new grad who knows lots of theory but…

I was aware of that, but this senior role was replaced by other more generic senior roles like 'Head of Engineering' or just 'CTO'... And not one of my software engineering peers even thought about architecture. The number of times I've heard "architecture doesn't matter" or "clean code is completely subjective"...

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#147

Post by dayglo »

meager_wikis wrote: post #97
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #49

I love programming, but the idea of hanging out with and chatting with other programmers as a regular part of my social life leaves me cold. I'm happy to be a part of online conversations about code and hardware and design, but away from the computer ... not really. I'd rather be talking about food, or hiking or travelling or culture or relationships. There have been very few people I've ever met in person that I rea…

Same. I see programming as a way to accomplish some sort of task. When artists hang out, do they spend their time talking about brush strokes or editing techniques? From my experience not really, they talk about the higher up stuff. Themes or storytelling or influences are what they usually talk about. I want to operate on the higher plane.

“When art critics get together they talk about Form and Structure and Meaning. When artists get together they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine.” - Picasso

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#148

Post by aristofun »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #126
aristofun wrote: post #119

Controversial point - many problems of today's IT industry stem from people taking their job too personal. Do you know many plumbers or doctors who are so connected to their work that they do plumbing or doctoring as a hobby? I personally try to avoid such Programmers when possible, they usually overengineer everything they touch just for the sake of engineering. Without even realizing there is a problem.

This seems like an analogy in bad faith. How would plumbing as a hobby even make sense? Compare to jobs like writers, scientists, carpenters, mechanics, etc that are much closer to programmers in spirit and do have a lot of people doing them in their free time.

> This seems like an analogy in bad faith. How would plumbing as a hobby even make sense?

Exactly!

> Compare to jobs like writers, scientists, carpenters, mechanics, etc that are much closer to programmers in spirit and do have a lot of people doing them in their free time.

This is your bias of equating programming to an art form. And that's the core of the problem.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#149

Post by hintymad »

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about > learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve > learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of > programming.

I think the pleasure and the identity is still there. It's just that we need to amp up the game. How many times one can really enjoy writing a binary search or a service that essentially transforms data from one JSON format to another. Fortunately or unfortunately, the huge wave of Internet+Big Data+Cloud+Mobile+Social has been part of our daily life, and what we do day in and day out has become increasingly mundane. As a result, what we implement day in and day out is getting increasingly repetitive -- I think to a certain degree the repetitiveness, when crossing certain threshold, will take away the pleasure of programming and will destroy our identity.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#150

Post by initramfs2 »

softwaredoug wrote: post #15
golly_ned wrote: post #2

I’m wary about the exuberance of AI displacing quality. But some of the worst experiences I’ve had with coworkers were with those who made programming part of their identity. Every technical disagreement on a PR became a threat to identity or principles, and ceased being about making the right decision in that moment. Identity means: there’s us, and them, and they don’t get it. ‘Programmer’ is much better off as a de…

In the last few decades, we went from a small handful of programming languages / libraries to a massive cambrian explosion from Github-fueled open source. Everyone's choice of Javascript framework became a dumb pissing contest and source of identity. A cudgel used at meetings to look down on some other way of doing things. I hope AI liberates us from that dumb facade of pretend innovation. In some ways, us programmer…

A human problem will not be solved by the additional of AI. It's a force multiplier. If management is shit, it will be shittier. If you get arguments lime this during work, now you will get more, because it's so easy to port or rewrite or even create your own framework now. It's even easier to compete in the pissing match because you can just ask the AI for why xyz is wrong.

I feel like it's important to align team/org goals once in a while -- there's nothing wrong with a refactor or a port, but what's the ROI, etc etc. Yes I agree this framework is better but what do we gain, do we really need it etc

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