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WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

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Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#141

Post by transpute »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #122
notepad0x90 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

This has already been an area of research, both publicly, and most likely in private/government defense research. In a targeted situation, i.e. surveillance of a household of 6, this would work easily enough...but I doubt there is enough information to provide reliable (high AUC) tagging of ID in a public scenario oh hundreds to thousands of individuals.

https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/22/whofi_wifi_identifier...

> Researchers in Italy have developed a way to create a biometric identifier for people based on the way the human body interferes with Wi-Fi signal propagation.. can re-identify a person in other locations most of the time when a Wi-Fi signal can be measured. Observers could therefore track a person as they pass through signals sent by different Wi-Fi networks – even if they’re not carrying a phone.. their technique makes accurate matches on the public NTU-Fi dataset up to 95.5 percent.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#142

Post by culi »

sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

Yes but this is just the start and its already good enough for an ICE car to park outside your house and check if you're home and what room you're in.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#143

Post by Fnoord »

sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

If I was interested in mass surveillance I would combine the radio data (WLAN, BT, ...) with the camera feed. If you then see the same person with ML, you can correlate that with radio's. You can even do that with cell towers with anonymous SIM, especially if combined with public transport camera feed or ALPR/ANPR.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#144

Post by protocolture »

woodrowbarlow wrote: post #113
sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

the article is off-base with wifi. the real story is in 6G cellular. there is a working group at 3gpp, an EU-funded research group (6th sense, Open6GHub), universities (NCSU, Bristol), and many companies working very hard right now on proposals to include "integrated/joint sensing and communication" (ISAC/JCAS) in the 6G spec. ISAC means adding mmWave to 6G (ostensibly for speed, but also) to build a high-fidelity 3d…

> ISAC means adding mmWave to 6G (ostensibly for speed, but also) to build a high-fidelity 3d realtime "digital twin" of the real world that can see through walls, owned and operated by your telecom provider.

"See through walls"

There used to be a great video on youtube of a very high power 60GHz signal being blocked by a door. Sad I can never find it. E Band isn't much better.

IIRC the 60GHz radio is being left out of a lot of 5G deployments because the slight benefits don't outweigh the cost.

This is a pretty common thing for mmWave (or near mmWave) to be deployed with massive fanfare and then be slowly phased out of existence. I am decidedly not writing this on a WiGig docking station.

I dont see telcos wanting to constantly broadcast extra mmWave for little to no added benefit, especially not in all directions. Likewise, regulators are going to choke on that. And the class/band license schemes would have to be updated, to remove interference from devices already using those bands as they are about to have a constant background level of interference. E-Band PTP users, of which there are many, wont give up their high capacity links to weird 6G omni broadcasts without a fight.

I tell you what however, having a button you can press that would map the environment for alignment sounds like a maybe use case here. Better than a camera for detecting new obstructions when links go down.

They might also add more bands to the whole automatic MIMO backhaul trick they have been pursuing.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#145

Post by niobe »

sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

HEADLINE: Electromagnetic radiation can be used to see!!!!

Right, that's what your eyes do. Radio is much longer wavelength than visible light (~5-10cm). So at best it offers extremely crappy resolution unless - you're doing something clever with second order information.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#146

Post by Modified3019 »

sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

When it comes to capability, the phrase “it’s the worst it’s ever going to be” comes to mind.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#147

Post by Ancapistani »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #122
notepad0x90 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

This has already been an area of research, both publicly, and most likely in private/government defense research. In a targeted situation, i.e. surveillance of a household of 6, this would work easily enough...but I doubt there is enough information to provide reliable (high AUC) tagging of ID in a public scenario oh hundreds to thousands of individuals.

I bet there is.

Off the top of my head, I bet body composition combined with gait analysis would be enough to uniquely identify an individual.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#148

Post by Ancapistani »

woodrowbarlow wrote: post #113
sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

the article is off-base with wifi. the real story is in 6G cellular. there is a working group at 3gpp, an EU-funded research group (6th sense, Open6GHub), universities (NCSU, Bristol), and many companies working very hard right now on proposals to include "integrated/joint sensing and communication" (ISAC/JCAS) in the 6G spec. ISAC means adding mmWave to 6G (ostensibly for speed, but also) to build a high-fidelity 3d…

Great. Now you’re telling me the chicken wire embedded in my walls isn’t sufficient, and I’m going to have to go with grounded sheet metal?

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#149

Post by Ancapistani »

NetMageSCW wrote: post #114
cj wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about rotating MAC address?

This has nothing to do with MAC addresses.

Not directly, but presumably any device you have on you would be important for associating a profile with an individual.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#150

Post by scottLobster »

Cool spooky concept, but seems like this could be easily foiled by shoving some aluminum foil into one's pockets or wearing thermal clothing in the winter. Or moving furniture around.

My cheapo Amazon desk is steel framed, and the monitors have all sorts of metal and signals running through them. I know it impacts wifi because my wifi-connected printer gets crappy signal on one side and decent signal on the other. Good luck getting a positive ID via wifi when I'm sitting at it.

Likewise I don't see how this survives in the real world for a mass surveillance application. Any "signature" will be in constant flux as environments change, in terms of everything from crowds to weather. I'll need to see a demo outside of a controlled environment before I start trying to obfuscate my signature or remodel my house to run Ethernet everywhere.

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