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How to effectively write quality code with AI

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Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#141

Post by tiny-automates »

frankc wrote: post #36
jeppester wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also how I feel. I think you have every right to doubt those telling us that they run 5 agents to generate a new SAAS-product while they are sipping latté in a bar. To work like that I believe you'll have to let go of really digging into the code, which in my experience is needed if want good quality. Yet I think coding agents can be quite a useful help for some of the trivial, but time consuming chores. For i…

I think we really need to have a serious think of what is "good quality" in the age of coding agents. A lot of the effort we put into maintaining quality has to do with maintainability, readability etc. But is it relevant if the code isn't for humans? What is good for a human is not what is good for an AI necessarily (not to say there is no overlap). I think there are clearly measurable things we can agree still appl…

i've been building agent tooling for a while and this is the question i keep coming back to. the actual failure mode isn't messy code, agents produce reasonably clean, well-typed output these days. it's that the code confidently solves a different problem than what you intended. i've had an agent refactor an auth flow that passed every test but silently dropped a token refresh check because it "simplified" the logic. clean code, good types, tests green, security hole. so for me "quality" has shifted from cyclomatic complexity and readability scores to "does the output behaviour match the specification across edge cases, including the ones i didn't enumerate." that's fundamentally an evaluation problem, not a linting problem.

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#142

Post by agumonkey »

majormajor wrote: post #128
agumonkey wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get crazy over the 'engineer are not paid to write loc', nobody is sad because they don't have to type anymore. My two issues are it levels the delivery game, for the average web app, anybody can now output something acceptable, and then it doesn't help me conceptualize solution better, so I revert to letting it produce stuff that is not maleable enough.

I wonder about who "anybody can now output something acceptable" will hit most - engineers or software entrepreneurs. Any implementation moat around rapid prototyping, and any fundraising moat around hiring a team of 10 to knock out your first few versions, seems gone now. Trying to sell MVP-tier software is real hard when a bunch of your potential customers will just think "thanks for the idea, I'll just make my own…

> your potential customers will just think "thanks for the idea, I'll just make my own."

yeah, and i'm surprised nobody talks about this much. prompting is not that hard, and some non software people are smart enough to absorb the necessary details (especially since the llm can tutor them on the way) and then let the loop produce the MVP.

> Or maybe cheaper code just means ever-more-specialized workflows instead of pushing users to one-size-fits-all tooling.

Interesting thought

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#143

Post by tiny-automates »

OptionOfT wrote: post #2

I wonder at the end of this if it's the still worth the risk? A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations. Maybe it's the kind of work I'm doing, or maybe I just suck, but the code to me is a forcing mechanism into ironing out the details, and I don't get that when I'm writing a specification.

i go back and forth on this. when i'm working on something where the hard part is the actual algorithm, say custom scheduling logic or a non-trivial state machine, i need my hands in the code because the implementation is the thinking. but for anything where the complexity is in integration rather than logic, wiring up OAuth flows, writing CRUD endpoints, setting up CI pipelines, agents save me hours and the output is usually fine after one review pass. the "code as thought" argument is real but it applies to maybe 20% of what most of us ship day to day. the other 80% is plumbing where the bottleneck is knowing what to build, not how.

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#144

Post by agumonkey »

sdf2erf wrote: post #133
agumonkey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I'm well aware of this. I admitted defeat in a way.. I can't compete. I'm just at loss, and unless LLM stall and break for some reason (ai bubble, enshittification..) I don't see a future for me in "software" in a few years.

So why havent you been fired already? .......

gemini has only been deployed in the corp this year, but the expectations are now higher (doubled). i'll report by the end of the year..

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#145

Post by Sparkyte »

I use it for scaffolding and often correct it for the layour I prefer. Then I use to check my code, and then scaffold in some more modules. I then connect them together.

Long as you review the code and correct it, it is no more different than using stackoverflow. A stack overflow that reads your code and helps stitch the context.

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#146

Post by pickleRick243 »

falloutx wrote: post #54
whynotminot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fading but common sentiment on hacker news. There’s a lot of engineers who will refuse to wake up to the revolution happening in front of them. I get it. The denialism is a deeply human response.

Its only revolutionary if you think engineers were slow before or software was not being delivered fast enough. Its revolutionary for some people sure, but everyone is in a different situation, so one man's trash can be other man's treasure. Most people are treading both paths as automation threatens their livelihood and work they loved, also still not able to understand why would people pay to companies that are act…

Do you have this same understanding for all the people whose livelihoods are threatened (or already extinct) due to the work of engineers?

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#147

Post by mcny »

OptionOfT wrote: post #2

I wonder at the end of this if it's the still worth the risk? A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations. Maybe it's the kind of work I'm doing, or maybe I just suck, but the code to me is a forcing mechanism into ironing out the details, and I don't get that when I'm writing a specification.

> A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations.

I completely agree but my thought went to how we are supposed to estimate work just like that. Or worse, planning poker where I'm supposed to estimate work someone else does.

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#148

Post by AdieuToLogic »

OptionOfT wrote: post #2

I wonder at the end of this if it's the still worth the risk? A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations. Maybe it's the kind of work I'm doing, or maybe I just suck, but the code to me is a forcing mechanism into ironing out the details, and I don't get that when I'm writing a specification.

> A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations.

Two principles I have held for many years which I believe are relevant both to your sentiment and this thread are reproduced below. Hopefully they help.

First:

  When making software, remember that it is a snapshot of 
  your understanding of the problem. It states to all, 
  including your future-self, your approach, clarity, and 
  appropriateness of the solution for the problem at hand. 
  Choose your statements wisely.
And:

  Code answers what it does, how it does it, when it is used, 
  and who uses it. What it cannot answer is why it exists. 
  Comments accomplish this. If a developer cannot be bothered 
  with answering why the code exists, why bother to work with 
  them?

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#149

Post by palmotea »

9dev wrote: post #96
palmotea wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you have every right to doubt those telling us that they run 5 agents to generate a new SAAS-product while they are sipping latté in a bar. To work like that I believe you'll have to let go of really digging into the code, which in my experience is needed if want good quality. Also we live in a capitalist society. The boss will soon ask: "Why the fuck am I paying you to sip a latte in a bar? While am machin…

> AI just means more output will be expected of you, and they'll keep pushing you to work as hard as you can. That’s a bit too cynical for me. After all, yes, your boss is not paying you for sipping lattes, but for producing value for the company. If there is a tool that maximises your output, why wouldn’t he want you to use that to great efficiency? Put differently, would a carpenter shop accept employees rejecting…

> That’s a bit too cynical for me. After all, yes, your boss is not paying you for sipping lattes, but for producing value for the company. If there is a tool that maximises your output, why wouldn’t he want you to use that to great efficiency?

Sitting in a cafe enjoying a latte is not "producing value for the company." If having "5 agents to generate a new SAAS-product" matches your non-AI capacity and gives you enough free time to relax in a cafe, he's going to want to you run 50 agents generating 5 new SAAS products, until you hit your capacity.

If he doesn't need 5 new SAAS products, just one, then he's going to fire you or other members of your team.

Think of it this way: you're a piece of equipment to your boss, and every moment he lets you sit idle (on the clock) is money lost. He wants to run that piece of equipment as hard as he can, to maximize his profit.

That's labor under capitalism.

Re: How to effectively write quality code with AI

#150

Post by 8fu8uf8 »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #148
OptionOfT wrote: post #2

I wonder at the end of this if it's the still worth the risk? A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations. Maybe it's the kind of work I'm doing, or maybe I just suck, but the code to me is a forcing mechanism into ironing out the details, and I don't get that when I'm writing a specification.

> A lot of how I form my thoughts is driven by writing code, and seeing it on screen, running into its limitations. Two principles I have held for many years which I believe are relevant both to your sentiment and this thread are reproduced below. Hopefully they help. First: When making software, remember that it is a snapshot of your understanding of the problem. It states to all, including your future-self, your ap…

> If a developer cannot be bothered with answering why the code exists, why bother to work with them?

Most people can't answer why they themselves exist, or justify why they are taking up resources rather than eating a bullet and relinquishing their body-matter.

According to the philosophy herein, they are therefore worthless and not worth interacting with, right?

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