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AI code and software craft

alexwennerberg.com

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Re: AI code and software craft

#141

Post by will__ness »

acedTrex wrote: post #22
will__ness wrote: post #17

> But there are serious limits. [Your coding agent] will lie to you, they don't really understand things, and they often generate bad code. I think that really high quality code can be created via coding agents. Not in one prompt, but instead an orchestration of planning, implementing, validating, and reviewing. Its still engineering work. The code still matters. Its just a different tool to write the code. I'd compa…

> the end result is the same but the method is very different. I dont think anyone really cares at all about LLM code that is the exact same end result as the hand written version. It's just in reality the LLM version is almost never the same as the hand written version, it's orders of magnitude worse.

> it's orders of magnitude worse

This is not my experience *at all*. Maybe models from like 18+ months ago would produce really bad code, but in general most coding agents are amazing at finding existing code and replicating the current patterns. My job as the operator then is to direct the coding agent to improve whatever it doesn't do well.

Re: AI code and software craft

#142

Post by will__ness »

simplify wrote: post #59
acedTrex wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean yes, i am speaking for myself. I am drowning in mountains of LLM slop patches lol. I WISH people were using LLMs as "just another tool to generate code, akin to a vim vs emacs discussion."

LLMs are an amplifier. The great get greater, and the lazier get lazier.

This is very true. My biggest frustration is people who use LLMs to generate code, and then don't use LLMs to refine that code. That is how you end up with slop.I would estimate that as a SDE I spend about 30% of my time reviewing and refining my own code, and I would encourage anyone operating a coding agent to still spend 30% figuring out how to improve the code before shipping.

Re: AI code and software craft

#143

Post by will__ness »

solomatov wrote: post #31
will__ness wrote: post #17

> But there are serious limits. [Your coding agent] will lie to you, they don't really understand things, and they often generate bad code. I think that really high quality code can be created via coding agents. Not in one prompt, but instead an orchestration of planning, implementing, validating, and reviewing. Its still engineering work. The code still matters. Its just a different tool to write the code. I'd compa…

>I think that really high quality code can be created via coding agents. Not in one prompt, but instead an orchestration of planning, implementing, validating, and reviewing. Do you have any advice to share (or resources)? Have you experienced it yourself?

Here is my exact workflow: https://willness.dev/blog/claude-code-workflow

Re: AI code and software craft

#144

Post by will__ness »

mbesto wrote: post #56
will__ness wrote: post #17

> But there are serious limits. [Your coding agent] will lie to you, they don't really understand things, and they often generate bad code. I think that really high quality code can be created via coding agents. Not in one prompt, but instead an orchestration of planning, implementing, validating, and reviewing. Its still engineering work. The code still matters. Its just a different tool to write the code. I'd compa…

> high quality code What does high quality code look like? > The code still matters. How so?

Great questions. For me, high quality code is code that: 1) works (is functional, no bugs) 2) is secure (no security vulnerabilities) 3) is extendable (I can quickly and easily build new features with limited refactors)

I argue the code still matters because of these 3 reasons. If the code doesn't work, your product won't work. If its not secure, there's obvious consequences. If you can't build new features quickly, you will end up wasting money/time.

Re: AI code and software craft

#145

Post by schubart »

leekrasnow wrote: post #123
ako wrote: post #102

I think we should embrace AI to craft better software. You have a lot of control over the code generated by AI, so all your designs, patterns, best practices can be used in the generated code. This will make us better software craftsmen. A nice example is guitar building: there's a whole bunch of luthiers that stick to traditional methods to build guitars, or even just limit themselves to japanese woodworking tools.…

I am a craftsman of fine puzzles made from wood and CNC machined metal. I use LLM in lots of ways to help on individual parts of bigger puzzle design projects, like for example to create custom puzzle solver software which can search through large sets of possible notching patterns on wooden sticks in order to find ones that meet some criteria or are optimized in whatever manner I find aesthetically pleasing. I’ve be…

https://www.pacificpuzzleworks.com/ ?

Beautiful work!

Re: AI code and software craft

#146

Post by hxugufjfjf »

hackyhacky wrote: post #139
jappgar wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt hobbyists would describe their hobby as purgatory. I doubt the laborer would describe their toil as "craft".

> I doubt hobbyists would describe their hobby as purgatory. Programmers have become accustomed to a lot of cultural and financial respect for their work. That's about to disappear. How do you think radio actors felt when they were displaced by movies? Or silent film actors when they were displaced by talkies? > I doubt the laborer would describe their toil as "craft". Intellectual labor is labor. I'm a laborer in pr…

And they were and are of course right to feel those feelings, but it doesn't change the fact that the world is changing. Rarely do large changes benefit everyone in the world.

Re: AI code and software craft

#147

Post by NilMostChill »

ako wrote: post #134
NilMostChill wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think i have enough control. This is probably just a disagreement about the term "control", so we can agree to disagree on that one i suppose. The rest of the reply doesn't really relate to any of the points i mentioned. That it's possible to successfully use the tool to achieve your goals wasn't in dispute. I'll try to narrow it down: --- > You are not a victim at the mercy of your LLM. Yes, you absolutely are,…

Looks like we just have different expectations: i don't want to micromanage my coding agents any more than i micromanage the developers i work with as a product manager. If the output does what it is supposed to do, and the software is maintainable and extendable by following certain best practices, i'm happy. And i expect that goes for most business people. And in practice i have more control with a coding agent tha…

TL;DR;

If it's working for you, great, but presenting it like it's a general direct replacement for development teams is disingenuous.

---

> Looks like we just have different expectations: i don't want to micromanage my coding agents any more than i micromanage the developers i work with as a product manager. If the output does what it is supposed to do, and the software is maintainable and extendable by following certain best practices, i'm happy. And i expect that goes for most business people.

None of what i said implied any expectations of the process of using the tools, but if you've found something that works for you that's good.

On the subject of maintainability and extension, that is usually bound to the level of complexity of the project and the increase in requirements is not generally linear.

I agree, many business people would love what you've described, very few are getting it.

> And in practice i have more control with a coding agent than with developers as i can iterate over ideas quickly: "build this idea", "no change this", "remove this and replace it with this". Within an hour you can quickly iterate an idea into something that works well. With developers this would have taken days if not more. And they would've complained i need to better prepare my requirements.

Up to a point, yes.

If your application of this methodology works well enough before you hit the limitations of the tooling, that's great.

There is , however, a threshold of complexity where this starts to break down, this threshold can be mitigated somewhat with experience and a better understanding on how to utilise the tooling, but it still exists (currently).

Once you reach this threshold the approaches you are talking about start to work less effectively and even actively hinder progress.

There are techniques and approaches to software development that can further push this threshold out, but then you're getting into the territory of having to know enough to be able to instruct the LLM to use these approaches.

Re: AI code and software craft

#148

Post by hackyhacky »

hxugufjfjf wrote: post #146
hackyhacky wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt hobbyists would describe their hobby as purgatory. Programmers have become accustomed to a lot of cultural and financial respect for their work. That's about to disappear. How do you think radio actors felt when they were displaced by movies? Or silent film actors when they were displaced by talkies? > I doubt the laborer would describe their toil as "craft". Intellectual labor is labor. I'm a laborer in pr…

And they were and are of course right to feel those feelings, but it doesn't change the fact that the world is changing. Rarely do large changes benefit everyone in the world.

> And they were and are of course right to feel those feelings, but it doesn't change the fact that the world is changing. Rarely do large changes benefit everyone in the world.

I'm not sure who you are arguing against. No one here said that the world isn't changing. But it seems to me that the people who are disadvantaged by AI, which is potentially everyone who doesn't own a data center, should take efforts to ensure their continued survival, instead of merely becoming serfs to the ruling oligarchs.

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