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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

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Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#141

Post by pjmlp »

anal_reactor wrote: post #139
crakhamster01 wrote: post #134

I think this advice is pretty apt for small to medium sized companies. We're all invested in the company succeeding, but you don't want to become known as the person that always says "no". At large companies, I've rarely found a reason to speak out on a project. Unless it has a considerable effect on my team/work (read: peace of mind), it just doesn't make sense to be the person casting doubt. There's not much ROI fo…

I've realized that climbing the corporate ladder doesn't make any sense. You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward. The smartest move is to find a bottom-tier position where they pay you enough to sustain your desired lifestyle, but where you cannot really be blamed for failures of the management.

My kind of approach as well. I don't care it shown as not being career oriented, as long as there are options to work elsewhere, even if outside IT.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#142

Post by sph »

anal_reactor wrote: post #139
crakhamster01 wrote: post #134

I think this advice is pretty apt for small to medium sized companies. We're all invested in the company succeeding, but you don't want to become known as the person that always says "no". At large companies, I've rarely found a reason to speak out on a project. Unless it has a considerable effect on my team/work (read: peace of mind), it just doesn't make sense to be the person casting doubt. There's not much ROI fo…

I've realized that climbing the corporate ladder doesn't make any sense. You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward. The smartest move is to find a bottom-tier position where they pay you enough to sustain your desired lifestyle, but where you cannot really be blamed for failures of the management.

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle

> You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward

On that I disagree. Managers might have to take responsibility for bad decisions, sure, but get a disproportionately larger reward than those under them. It's certainly less stressful at the bottom of the ladder, but don't expect to get much praise or monetary reward, and you're the first to go as soon as something goes wrong. There's a reason why late-stage companies are full of middle managers, and few people actually doing the work.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#143

Post by [deleted] »

BikiniPrince wrote: post #129
cardanome wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paycheck? The vast majority of software projects fail. Honestly, I can't remember ever in my career working on a project I really believed in. Sometimes I do enjoy the challenge of doing the impossible. Turning a doomed project around or at least minimizing damage. I had some where I thought "this worked out but if anyone but me had been in charge, yeah this would have been a disaster". That feeds my ego. Though…

That’s crazy sauce. I don’t lose. The one time a project was heading to failure I went to the VP and explained the sabotage I was seeing. This was a very lucrative contract and failure was not an option. He pulled that manager and his team so far off they had a new office on the moon. They were pulling non-sense like submitting the pseudo code I white boarded as a commit. Two weeks in and I’m still explaining to them…

[deleted]

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#144

Post by anal_reactor »

sph wrote: post #142
anal_reactor wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've realized that climbing the corporate ladder doesn't make any sense. You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward. The smartest move is to find a bottom-tier position where they pay you enough to sustain your desired lifestyle, but where you cannot really be blamed for failures of the management.

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle > You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward On that I disagree. Managers might have to take responsibility for bad decisions, sure, but get a disproportionately larger reward than those under them. It's certainly less stressful at the bottom of the ladder, but don't expect to…

> don't expect to get much praise or monetary reward

Yeah so I figured out that if I have a bullshit busyjob for €100k and my option is to actually start working my ass off and maybe double the salary in absolute best-case scenario, then fuck that. But I admit that my position might be exceptional.

> and you're the first to go as soon as something goes wrong.

I live in Europe so I assume I'd survive even a big fuckup as long as I'm following my manager's orders, even if HQ is American. Also, when there are bigger layoffs, they specifically by law must let go in the order of new hires to old hires, which means that I'm not in immediate danger even if they cut workforce.

The biggest danger is someone discovering that I mostly play video games at work and then giving me lots of useless tasks just to keep me occupied.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#146

Post by fennecbutt »

Except they don't fail. The other day I got told that a bunch of management were extremely pleased with a quick and dirty implementation of a project, whose development was frozen before it had even met the initial requirements and it just makes me think again and again: what am I even doing this all for? My paycheck?

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#147

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

It’s simple “Not my monkey. Not my circus”.

When I was officially the architect at two companies between 2016-2020, I felt comfortable stating my opinions on the “how” of the underlying infrastructure and cross cutting concerns and shared code. But even then I didn’t give my unsolicited opinion to the team leads who built for instance the user interface or the business logic when that wasn’t my responsibility.

The second saying is “The avalanche has already started. The pebbles no longer have a vote”. If a decision was decided by my skip manager or above, I’m not saying anything. I’m going to go along with the program.

I’ve been working for consulting departments (at AWS) and then (full time) at consulting companies since 2020. When I was a mid level consultant (L5) at AWS, for larger projects where I was assigned to lead one slice of work (a workstream), if it didn’t affect me, I said nothing. I was just trying to keep my head down to get through my four year initial contract.

I definitely didn’t stick my nose into projects I wasn’t assigned to.

Now I’m a staff consultant at a third party consulting company. I still go by the same rule. I keep my mouth shut about internal corporate decisions, I tow the company line, I don’t give unsolicited advice about other projects and I lead my own projects.

There is one specific speciality I’m working on building up within the company where I will subtly interject. But even then, it’s only because I have the blessing of C suite and they reached out to me.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#148

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

cj wrote: post #44
BeetleB wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” I often say "Sometimes, you have to let the manager fail." Some managers don't like being told their ideas won't work. If you refuse or argue, you are seen as the reason his idea failed. I've found what works best with them is to proceed with the work, but keep them informed very frequently, so they can see how things evolve, and w…

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

Money.

But since 2008, I’ve always “kept my running shoes around my neck”. I’m always prepared to get a new job when the pay/bullshit ratio is going in the wrong direction.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#149

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

johnisgood wrote: post #72
cj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

It does sound depressing, along with the "money" replies.

It’s all transactional, that the only reason I with everyday

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#150

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

sph wrote: post #142
anal_reactor wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've realized that climbing the corporate ladder doesn't make any sense. You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward. The smartest move is to find a bottom-tier position where they pay you enough to sustain your desired lifestyle, but where you cannot really be blamed for failures of the management.

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle > You put more effort, you take responsibility for stupid people's decisions, and then you get a disproportionately small reward On that I disagree. Managers might have to take responsibility for bad decisions, sure, but get a disproportionately larger reward than those under them. It's certainly less stressful at the bottom of the ladder, but don't expect to…

It still makes little sense to be a line level manager. You can make just as much as a senior+ IC at the right company.
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