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The rise of industrial software

chrisloy.dev

141–150 of 201 posts

Re: The rise of industrial software

#141
One thing that has become clearer to me over the years is that reasoning by analogy (like this article does) sounds a lot smarter than it is. If you look from first principles, it's clear that physical goods and software don't share the same properties and thus the analogy falls apart.

Physical goods like clothes or cars have variable costs. The marginal unit always costs > 0, and thus the price to the consumer is always greater than zero. Industrialization lowered this variable cost, while simultaneously increasing production capacity, and thus enabled a new segment of "low cost, high volume" products, but it does not eliminate the variable cost. This variable cost (eg. the cost of a hand made suit) is the "umbrella" under which a low cost variant (factory made clothes) has space to enter the market.

Digital goods have zero marginal cost. Many digital goods do not cost anything at all to the consumer! Or they are as cheap as possible to actively maximize users because their costs are effectively fixed. What is the "low value / low cost" version of Google? or Netflix for that matter? This is non-sensical because there's no space for a low cost entrant to play in when the price is already free.

In digital goods, consumers tend to choose on quality because price is just not that relevant of a dimension. You see this in the market structure of digital goods. They tend to be winner (or few) take all because the best good can serve everyone. That is a direct result of zero marginal cost.

Even if you accept the premise that AI will make software "industrialized" and thus cheaper to produce, it doesn't change the fact that most software is already free or dirt cheap.

The version of this that might make sense is software that is too expensive to make at all because the market size (eg. number of consumers * price they would pay) is less than the cost of the software developer / entrpreneurs time. But by definition those are small markets, and not anything like the huge markets that were enabled by physical good industrialization.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#142
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "industrialisation" concept is an analogy to emphasize how the costs of production are plummeting. Don't get hung up pointing out how one aspect of software doesn't match the analogy.

> The "industrialisation" concept is an analogy to emphasize how the costs of production are plummeting. Don't get hung up pointing out how one aspect of software doesn't match the analogy. Are they, though? I am not aware of any indicators that software costs are precipitously declining. At least as far as I know, we aren't seeing complements of software developers (PMs, sales, other adjacent roles) growing rapidly…

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Re: The rise of industrial software

#143
post #37

Thing is: Industrialization is about repeating manufacturing steps. You don't need to repeat anything for software. Software can be copied arbitrarily for no practical cost. The idea of automation creating a massive amount of software sounds ridiculous. Why would we need that? More Games? Can only be consumed at the pace of the player. Agents? Can be reused once they fulfill a task sufficently. We're probably going t…

The "industrialisation" concept is an analogy to emphasize how the costs of production are plummeting. Don't get hung up pointing out how one aspect of software doesn't match the analogy.

But focusing on production cost is silly. The cost to consumers is what matters. Software is already free or dirt cheap because it can be served at zero marginal cost. There was only a market for cheap industrial clothes because tailor made clothes were expensive. This is not the case in software and that's why this whole industrialization analogy falls apart upon inspection

Re: The rise of industrial software

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but decades of feedback, tuning and fixing On the contrary, this is likely the reason why we can disrupt these large players. Experience from 2005 just don't hold that much value in 2025 in tech.

It absolutely does. I cannot believe I am reading this on HN... Do you think the idea of a pointer changed? That you need locks when accessing variables when doing multithreading? That principles like "Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept" have changed? In fact, almost nothing changed from 2005 to now in any conceptual form.

The short answer is that these things don't really exist anymore for most (business) applications when you stopped writing it in C.

So the things you mention indeed is experience you need to get rid of as you move to other software stacks and other technologies.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#145
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess two things can be true at the same time. And I think AI will likely matter a lot more than detractors think, and nowhere near as much as enthusiasts think. Perhaps a good analogy is the spreadsheet. It was a complete shift in the way that humans interacted with numbers. From accounting to engineering to home budgets - there are few people who haven't used a spreadsheet to "program" the computer at some point.…

> your analogy I don't think AI does mass-produced paperbacks It's the article's analogy, not mine. And, are you really saying that people aren't regularly mass-vibing terrible software that others use...? That seems to be a primary use case... Though, yes, I'm sure it'll become more common for many people to vibe their own software - even if just tiny, temporary, fit-for-purpose things.

I think existing skilled programmers are leveraging AI to increase productivity.

I think there are some people with limited, or no, programming experience who are vibe coding small apps out of nothing. But I think this is a tiny fraction of people. As much as the AI might write code, the tools used to do that, plus compile, distribute etc are still very developer focused.

Sure, one day my pastor might be able to download and install some complete environment which allows him to create something.

Maybe it'll design the database for him, plus install and maintain the local database server for him (or integrate with a cloud service.)

Maybe it'll get all the necessary database and program security right.

Maybe it'll integrate well with other systems, from email to text-import and export. Maybe that will all be maintainable as external services change.

Maybe it'll be able to do support when the printing stops working, or it all needs to be moved to a new machine.

Maybe this environment will be stable enough for the years and decades that the program will be used for. Maybe updating or adding to the program along the way won't break existing things.

Maybe it'll work so well it can be distributed to others.

All this without my pastor even needing to understand what a "variable" is.

That day may come. But, as well as it might or might not write code today, we're a long long way from this future. Mass producing software is a lot more than writing code.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#146
post #55
post #47

This essay, like so many others, mistakes the task of "building" software with the task of "writing" software. Anyone in the world can already get cheap, mass-produced software to do almost anything they want their computer to do. Compilers spit out new build of any program on demand within seconds, and you can usually get both source code and pre-compiled copies over the internet. The "industrial process" (as TFA pu…

You're getting caught up on the technical meaning of terms rather than what the author actually wrote. Theyre explicitly saying that most software will no longer be artisianal - a great literary novel - and instead become industrialized - mass produced paperback garbage books. But also saying that good software, like literature, will continue to exist.

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Re: The rise of industrial software

#147
Its taken as a fait accompli that LLMs are more productive. But outside some initial scaffolding or code review... I just do not see it.

I am not threatened by LLMs. I would like it if I could code purely in requirements. But every time I get frustrated and just do it myself, because I am faster.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#148
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newsflash! Less happens while people are asleep! Correlation doesnt say anything about the sensitivity/scaling. (i recognize that my original comment didnt quite make this point, though the correlation is definitely not 100%, so that point does still stand) can you note the difference between the earth being lit by torches, candles, kerosene lamps and incandescent bulbs, versus LED lights? LED isnt glowing harder, it…

Facts are that you can absolutely tell how developed a region is by looking from above. And that there hasn't been a year in which the humanity has used less energy than the previous one and grown.

Evidently you are not here to communicate in good faith. Take care

Re: The rise of industrial software

#149
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your analogy I don't think AI does mass-produced paperbacks It's the article's analogy, not mine. And, are you really saying that people aren't regularly mass-vibing terrible software that others use...? That seems to be a primary use case... Though, yes, I'm sure it'll become more common for many people to vibe their own software - even if just tiny, temporary, fit-for-purpose things.

I think existing skilled programmers are leveraging AI to increase productivity. I think there are some people with limited, or no, programming experience who are vibe coding small apps out of nothing. But I think this is a tiny fraction of people. As much as the AI might write code, the tools used to do that, plus compile, distribute etc are still very developer focused. Sure, one day my pastor might be able to down…

We could have LLM’s capable of doing all that for your pastor right now and it would still take time before these systems can effectively reason through troubleshooting this bespoke software. Right now the effectiveness of LLLM-powered troubleshooting software platforms relies upon the gravity induced by millions of programmers sharing experiences upon more or less the same platforms. Gigabytes to terabytes of text training data on all sorts of things that go bonkers on each platform.

We are now undergoing a Cambrian explosion of bespoke software vibe coded by a non-technical audience, and each one brings with it new sets of failure modes only found in their operational phase. And compared to the current state, effectively zero training data to guide their troubleshooting response.

Non-linearly increasing the surface area of software to debug, and inversely decreasing the training data to apply to that debugging activity will hopefully apply creative pressure upon AI research to come up with more powerful ways to debug all this code. As it stands now, I sure hope someone deep into AI research and praxis sees this and follows up with a comment here that prescribes the AI-assisted troubleshooting approach I’m missing that goes beyond “a more efficient Google and StackOverflow search”.

Also, the current approach is awesome for me to come up to speed on new applications of coding and new platforms I’m not familiar with. But for areas that I’m already fluent in and the areas my stakeholders especially want to see LLM-based amplification, either I’m doing something wrong or we’re just not yet good at troubleshooting legacy code with them. There is some uncanny valley of reasoning I’m unable to bridge so far with the stuff I’m already familiar with.

Re: The rise of industrial software

#150
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you still needed the captain driving the ship. The question is more what becomes of all the rowers when you’re switching from captain + 100 rowers to captain + steam engine They’re not all going to get their own boat and captain hat

>They’re not all going to get their own boat and captain hat Why not? Anyone can load up Claude code and start trial and erroring until they get something that works and has similar reliability to accepted software … what is the stat about 1 bug per 10 lines of code on average? I am meeting a lot of non coders telling me about their projects they are getting AI to do for them, stuff to help land title something or ot…

Anyone can load up Claude code and start trial and erroring until they get something that works and has similar reliability to accepted software..

You still need to understand the code that AI is generating to fix the problems that you can't vibe a solution to. You still need to understand the process of developing software to know when something isn't working even if it looks like it is. You still need other people to trust the software that you created. None of those things comes naturally to vibe coders. They're essentially teaching themselves software engineering in a very back-to-front way.

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