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NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

jeffgeerling.com

141–150 of 162 posts

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deploying a GPS jammer in civilized territory is a great way to go to prison.

It's not like foreign adversaries care.

The parent was saying HFT firms would do this to other HFT firms. They would care about doing this kind of thing - it’s not a white collar crime. And foreign adversaries would care about doing this during peacetime, especially for very unclear benefit.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deploying a GPS jammer in civilized territory is a great way to go to prison.

Would it actually go so far? Would the police actually try to investigate from where came the jammer? Might the competing firm possibly even finance an investigation themselves privately? And if so, would the police then accept the evidence? People have done far more evil things for money.

The victim firm would definitely notice, they’d tell the FCC, and their investigators will show up with a device that literally points them to wherever the jammer is. If you do this for stupid, silly reasons you will get fined[1], if you do it in commission of another crime you will probably get made an example of. It doesn’t matter how evil you are, it’s hilariously easy to get caught doing this.

[1]: https://www.nj.com/news/2013/08/man_fined_32000_for_blocking...

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it actually go so far? Would the police actually try to investigate from where came the jammer? Might the competing firm possibly even finance an investigation themselves privately? And if so, would the police then accept the evidence? People have done far more evil things for money.

The victim firm would definitely notice, they’d tell the FCC, and their investigators will show up with a device that literally points them to wherever the jammer is. If you do this for stupid, silly reasons you will get fined[1], if you do it in commission of another crime you will probably get made an example of. It doesn’t matter how evil you are, it’s hilariously easy to get caught doing this. [1]: https://www.nj…

We are talking about the UK, not the US. And the jammer will most likely be tucked away in some closet with no hint as to how it got there.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#144
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not correct at all. How did you arrive at that conclusion? GPS has its own independent timescale called GPS Time. GPS Time is generated and maintained by Atomic clocks onboard the GPS satellites (cesium and rubidium).

I think GP might’ve been referring to the part of Jeff’s post that references GPS, which I think may be a slight misunderstanding of the NIST email (saying “people using NIST + GPS for time transfer failed over to other sites” rather than “GPS failed over to another site”). The GPS satellite clocks are steered to the US Naval Observatory’s UTC as opposed to NIST’s, and GPS fails over to the USNO’s Alternate Master Cl…

I find this stuff really interesting, so if anyone's curious, here's a few more tidbits:

GPS system time is currently 18s ahead of UTC since it doesn't take UTC's leap seconds into account [0]

This (old) paper from USNO [1] goes into more detail about how GPS time is related to USNO's realization of UTC, as well as talking a bit about how TAI is determined (in hindsight! - by collecting data from clocks around the world and then processing it).

[0] https://www.cnmoc.usff.navy.mil/Our-Commands/United-States-N... [1] https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19960042620/downloads/19...

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, either Rb, Cs, or H standards depending on which GNSS system you're using. For the most critical applications, you can license a system like Fugro AtomiChron that provides enhanced GNSS timing down to the level of a few nanoseconds. There are a couple of products that do similar things, all based on providing better ephemerides than your receiver can obtain from the satellites themselves. You can get AtomiChron…

> You can get AtomiChron as an optional subscription with the SparkPNT GPSDO, for instance ( https://www.sparkfun.com/sparkpnt-gnss-disciplined-oscillato ...). That's one hell of a healthy profit margin there O.o The SiTime MEMS oscillator is about 100€ for one single chip, the mosaic-T GPS receiver is about 400€. Add 50€ for the rest (particularly the power input section looks complicated) and 50€ for handling, prob…

Yep, for hardware sold in low volumes, what looks like a healthy or even abusive profit margin turns out to be barely adequate to justify getting out of bed in the morning.

There are so many artificial bureaucratic barriers to entry these days, and it's not getting better.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it actually go so far? Would the police actually try to investigate from where came the jammer? Might the competing firm possibly even finance an investigation themselves privately? And if so, would the police then accept the evidence? People have done far more evil things for money.

The victim firm would definitely notice, they’d tell the FCC, and their investigators will show up with a device that literally points them to wherever the jammer is. If you do this for stupid, silly reasons you will get fined[1], if you do it in commission of another crime you will probably get made an example of. It doesn’t matter how evil you are, it’s hilariously easy to get caught doing this. [1]: https://www.nj…

> “Mr. Bojczak claimed that he installed and operated the jamming device in his company-supplied vehicle to block the GPS … system that his employer installed in the vehicle,” the FCC decision stated.

I'm not surprised that somebody would try and do this. However it is just so stupid at every level.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who does use those top-level servers? Aren’t some of them propagating the error or are all secondary level servers configured to use dispersed top-level servers? And how do they decide who is right when they don’t match? Is pool.ntp.org dispersed across possible interference and error correlation?

You can look at who the "Stratum 2" servers are, in the NTP.org pool and otherwise. Those are servers who sync from Stratum 1, like NIST. Anyone can join the NTP.org pool so it's hard to make blanket statements about it. I believe there's some monitoring of servers in the pool but I don't know the details. For example, Ubuntu systems point to their Stratum 2 timeservers by default, and I'd have to imagine that NIST i…

I've been running servers for the pool for years. They are checked regularly for accuracy/uptime or it's score goes down in the pool and eventually gets removed. I sync from 5 stratum 1 servers and use chrony these days.

Facebook had a really interesting engineering blog about building their own timeservers: https://engineering.fb.com/2020/03/18/production-engineering...

Really well written for anyone who is interested.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#148
post #135
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure all of that is true, but so is "Department of Defense". They're also the largest holder of IPv4 space, still. https://bgp.he.net/report/peers#_ipv4addresses

Why does the DoD hold so many IPv4s?

They were assigned a huge prefix at the creation of the internet iirc

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#149
post #135
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure all of that is true, but so is "Department of Defense". They're also the largest holder of IPv4 space, still. https://bgp.he.net/report/peers#_ipv4addresses

Why does the DoD hold so many IPv4s?

ARPANET, precursor to the internet, was a DoD project.

Re: NIST was 5 μs off UTC after last week's power cut

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll consider it clickbait... ... unless someone with real experience needing those tolerances chimes in and explains why it's true.

I'd have thought Jeff to be above clickbait, but here we are

If Jeff wants to maintain his job of making Youtube videos, youtube itself forces him to make clickbait thumbnails and titles.

They have A/B testing infrastructure available to creators for exactly that purpose.

If you say "Oh but he doesn't have to use that" you are wrong. If a creator's videos get low enough click through and "engagement", youtube just stops showing it to people.

Jeff, like every creator on youtube, is in an antagonistic deathmatch for your attention with people like Mr. Beast, and Youtube would rather five Mr Beasts than a thousand Jeffs. Youtube builds their platform to empower and enrich Mr Beast, and to force everyone else to adopt more of Mr Beasts methods to stay getting views, and getting their paycheck

It does not matter if you are "subscribed" to a channel for example. Youtube will still fail to show you new videos from your subscriptions if you don't play the stupid game enough.

Stop blaming the people who did not at all make this choice. Blame Youtube. Support platforms, like nebula and whatever that guntube service is called, with real money.

Did you know this video existed before it was posted to HN? I did, because it showed up in my feed even though I am not subscribed to jeff, because he plays the game well. I watched it too because I had no idea that weather was causing such a problem in Colorado and love hearing about NIST and the people who basically run the infrastructure of the internet that everyone takes for granted.

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