The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All • Hacker News Board

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#141

Post by fasbiner » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 1:10 AM UTC

rightbyte wrote: post #97

blaze33 wrote: post #54

Ok so this "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument is so recurrent I once went looking where it came from. The oldest account I found is in a religious book from 1832 [1]: "We must have nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but, and this is the important bit, this is in the context of your relationship with Christ. Later accounts are mostly from judicial documents like "well tell us what happened, if you have nothin…

> "We must have nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but, and this is the important bit, this is in the context of your relationship with Christ. Also note how it is some sort of goal not a statement on not having something to hide. I guess in line with "may the one without sin throw the first stone".

I think you're being reductionist here.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#142

Post by jordwest » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 1:13 AM UTC

blaze33 wrote: post #54

Ok so this "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument is so recurrent I once went looking where it came from. The oldest account I found is in a religious book from 1832 [1]: "We must have nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but, and this is the important bit, this is in the context of your relationship with Christ. Later accounts are mostly from judicial documents like "well tell us what happened, if you have nothin…

> - this argument may well be stuck in the collective unconscious of lots of people (albeit in the religious context)

Another example of such a belief is that "humans are inherently evil" which seems to have been planted in Western society by the concept of original sin. Interestingly the idea that sin was about our inherent badness didn't really arise until the struggle against Gnosticism [1] hundreds of years after Jesus died.

Now the belief is pervasive in secular society thanks to stories like "Lord of the Flies".

It's fascinating how even though we can call ourselves non religious we can still carry these beliefs around.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#143

Post by defrost » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 1:31 AM UTC

jordwest wrote: post #142

blaze33 wrote: post #54

Ok so this "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument is so recurrent I once went looking where it came from. The oldest account I found is in a religious book from 1832 [1]: "We must have nothing to hide, nothing to fear", but, and this is the important bit, this is in the context of your relationship with Christ. Later accounts are mostly from judicial documents like "well tell us what happened, if you have nothin…

> - this argument may well be stuck in the collective unconscious of lots of people (albeit in the religious context) Another example of such a belief is that "humans are inherently evil" which seems to have been planted in Western society by the concept of original sin. Interestingly the idea that sin was about our inherent badness didn't really arise until the struggle against Gnosticism [1] hundreds of years after…

Cheer up.

If you're still in Sydney I'd argue that large numbers of people paddled out off of Bondi Beach because of a pervasive Australian belief that there's always a few arseholes but most people are fundamentally good and community support is better than nothing.

You likely saw a couple of extremists repeatedly tackled and then dropped by the public and police, and near real time running in to help victims.

That's somewhat contra to the bleak of "humans are inherently evil".

Maybe the message of Lord of the Flies was that nuclear weapons and the Cold War depressed at least one author and that boys need mentors.

Maybe it's an issue in general with the On the Beach genre, from Shute to Winton: https://theshovel.com.au/2025/08/20/tim-winton-wonders-why-n...:

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#144

Post by Ongyten » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 2:47 AM UTC

Protecting your anonymity isn't a sign that you're hiding something because you have done something wrong. It is because you're cautious. Benign information can be used against you. European Jews in the early 1900s gave census takers the info they were Jews. Decades later that info was collated with punch card machines by the Nazis to build family trees to hunt them down. This is an example of how "innocent" info can be weaponized in ways you would never dream of.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#145

Post by ongytenes » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 3:01 AM UTC

Protecting your anonymity isn't a sign that you're hiding something because you have done something wrong. It is because you're cautious. Even the most benign information can be use against you. European Jews in the early 1900s gave census takers the info yhat they were Jews. Decades later that info was collated with punch card machines by the Nazis to build family trees to hunt them down. This is an example of how "innocent" info can be weaponized in ways you would never dream of.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#146

Post by delichon » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 3:11 AM UTC

ongytenes wrote: post #145

Protecting your anonymity isn't a sign that you're hiding something because you have done something wrong. It is because you're cautious. Even the most benign information can be use against you. European Jews in the early 1900s gave census takers the info yhat they were Jews. Decades later that info was collated with punch card machines by the Nazis to build family trees to hunt them down. This is an example of how "…

Unfortunately similar to US census data being used to intern Japanese during the war.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#147

Post by jordwest » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 3:32 AM UTC

defrost wrote: post #143

jordwest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - this argument may well be stuck in the collective unconscious of lots of people (albeit in the religious context) Another example of such a belief is that "humans are inherently evil" which seems to have been planted in Western society by the concept of original sin. Interestingly the idea that sin was about our inherent badness didn't really arise until the struggle against Gnosticism [1] hundreds of years after…

Cheer up. If you're still in Sydney I'd argue that large numbers of people paddled out off of Bondi Beach because of a pervasive Australian belief that there's always a few arseholes but most people are fundamentally good and community support is better than nothing. You likely saw a couple of extremists repeatedly tackled and then dropped by the public and police, and near real time running in to help victims. That'…

Don't get me wrong, I don't think humans are inherently evil. In fact in times of crisis (like the one you mention) we do tend to come together and I think that's evidence that the belief is incorrect.

I just had a discussion the other day with somebody who outright told me that they think humans are inherently evil and must be managed under a system to keep in order. I don't think it's an uncommon belief and nor do I think it's a bleak world because that belief exists, it's just a mistaken belief.

I would argue that you see the belief raise its head far more when people are interacting with others who they don't consider in their "in-group".

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#148

Post by eadwu » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 3:50 AM UTC

“Nothing to Hide” is more akin to a fundamental truth than a deviancy.

If you wish to hide something, why have you leaked it in the first place?

Why not ask the other question? Why are you trying to hide public information to begin with? Why are you introducing encryption on top of an underlying public interface.

This is intentionally different from are there things one would generally not be to be widely accessible or generally public.

There is nothing to hide if it is already public, because it is already public, you can't hide it even if you want to, you're only making it more difficult for a general member of the public to access that data. Even if you consider that "hiding", the source is still public.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#149

Post by throwaway290 » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 3:56 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #134

throwaway290 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not basic flamebait. if you have any serious conversation outside of your political bubble this is THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported. I can't there are so many shorts of right wing "influencers" cornering liberals who can't give a suitable reply to this question. so the argument about hearings is import…

> THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported (I can't). It might be a valid argument in a dictatorship, but not in the US - rather it's hopeium that completely relies on preconceived assumptions. An assertion that everyone deported/disappeared must be a non-citizen (... because otherwise why would they have been deporte…

Nope. It is a valid argument in US in the eyes of US citizens who make it. You don't get to just say "it's not a valid argument" and think that will convince people

and actually you know it too. That's why you give the rest of the explanation. which will not be seen because the conversation was killed.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#150

Post by mindslight » Sun, Dec 21, 2025, 4:38 AM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #149

mindslight wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> THE argument that people who get deported are never US citizens. and it is a valid argument unless you can find examples of citizens deported (I can't). It might be a valid argument in a dictatorship, but not in the US - rather it's hopeium that completely relies on preconceived assumptions. An assertion that everyone deported/disappeared must be a non-citizen (... because otherwise why would they have been deporte…

Nope. It is a valid argument in US in the eyes of US citizens who make it. You don't get to just say "it's not a valid argument" and think that will convince people and actually you know it too. That's why you give the rest of the explanation. which will not be seen because the conversation was killed.

What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site.

I didn't address the social aspects you brought up, and I really should have. Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite them being trivially debunked. That is a big part of The Problem, right? "Flood the zone with shit" to overwhelm people's attention and get them to succumb to repeated feel-good talking points that confirm their biases. But if people were more generally intellectually honest, then we wouldn't be staring down fascism to begin with.

There are also many people arguing against this tripe, but using the lamest arguments themselves, because once again confirming their preconceived biases feels good. When I go to protests, the sheer number of signs preaching to the choir saddens me - propagating the fascists' paradigm wherein the main issue here is illegal immigration is not going to win anyone over! The way I see it, we should be able to disagree on policy and solutions, but yet still reject the fascism together.

But back to the comment flagging - when the bulk of political discourse revolves around flamebait, then it's not terribly surprising the popular arguments get flagged on forums that are looking for something more than flame war. FWIW the whole conversation wasn't outright killed, rather it's hidden in a tree you can click to expand (it says [10 more] meaning 10 comments below it to expand). Personally, I usually click those, but I understand having to do so detracts from engagement.