Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#141

Post by luser001 »

astral303 wrote: post #133
EliAndrewC wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree - even when the salesmen behave exactly as you'd want them to, it's still a stressful experience because of the price opacity. When my wife and I bought our current car, we researched the average price for that year/model and resolved not to pay more than that, even though the price we were quoted was much higher. So we went to the dealer and noticed that the price on the sticker was LOWER than the p…

Future tip: there's a fair amount of price transparency out there, if you search for invoice pricing. Sites like Edmunds provide invoice pricing for the entire car, as well as the MSRP. Most high volume dealers will sell you cars at or 1% above invoice. This way you can walk in to the dealer informed and know the approximate range. Dealers don't like this. Some only negotiate as "$ or % off MSRP" and absolutely refus…

I've read that the "invoice price" is artificially inflated, because manufacturers give dealers hidden "incentives" and things like that to lower the real cost to the dealer. Any thoughts?

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#143

Post by travisp »

damoncali wrote: post #120
travisp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.

Absolutely true and one of the reasons I would be hesitant to live somewhere like Singapore. I wasn't arguing that Singapore was better, but simply discussing the surprise that the original commenter had in learning about such restrictive economic regulations in the US.

And the truth is, Singapore's benevolent dictatorship and the governments of 8 other nations currently allow their citizens more economic freedoms than the democratically elected politicians in the United States. At least, that's what this Index claims, which seems to match reality to some extent. The Index doesn't measure the power of the government to take those freedoms away on a whim, or non-economic freedoms, but simply the current level of economic freedom in these countries.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#144

Post by raganwald »

geebee wrote: post #93

"Whine" is an alert word for me. Any time someone tries to present his opponent's argument through an unflattering characterization "whining, stomping his feet, throwing a tantrum" rather than by presenting a well reasoned argument, I immediately become more guarded and skeptical about the argument I'm about to hear. Have you ever presented what you felt was a very fair and reasoned argument, only to have someone dis…

I sense the presence of the submarine.

http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#145

Post by astral303 »

luser001 wrote: post #141
astral303 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future tip: there's a fair amount of price transparency out there, if you search for invoice pricing. Sites like Edmunds provide invoice pricing for the entire car, as well as the MSRP. Most high volume dealers will sell you cars at or 1% above invoice. This way you can walk in to the dealer informed and know the approximate range. Dealers don't like this. Some only negotiate as "$ or % off MSRP" and absolutely refus…

I've read that the "invoice price" is artificially inflated, because manufacturers give dealers hidden "incentives" and things like that to lower the real cost to the dealer. Any thoughts?

I wouldn't call it artificially inflated, in that often times there are just no incentives (especially if ordering a car and not buying from existing stock).

There are two kinds of incentives: publicly advertised incentives (often called "cash back") and manufacturer-to-dealer incentives. The first kind is fairly common. For example, towards the end of a model year (or especially last year of a generation of a car), it's common for manufacturers to offer $1 or $1.5K cash back. The second, "advertised to dealer" kind is much more difficult to find out about. It might hinge on the # of cars the dealer sells that month. It might target a very specific model. Sometimes Edmunds has such incentives listed on a regional basis.

Many people don't bother checking even the manufacturer's own site for incentives. Right now, for example, Toyota has a $500 cash back on Corollas in my area. If I walk into a dealership and demand invoice, I am going to be actually paying $500 over invoice. Most salesmen will withhold available incentives and will happily nod and say "sure, here you go, invoice, you are robbing us blind here buddy."

About the only "inflation" is that the invoice price does include dealer holdback, which helps offset financing charges of holding a car on the lot in stock. A car that was held for a while will accumulate more financing charges (and thus less of the holdback will go into the dealer's pocket), whereas a car that is sold right away will let the dealer pocket the entire holdback. Typically we are talking anywhere from $200 to $800, depending on the car price and car manufacturer. This is an extra sensitive area and dealers are particularly unwilling to negotiate "into the holdback."

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#146

Post by nradov »

cynicalkane wrote: post #85
cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

For new cars, there's always YC-backed CarWoo, a no-hassle car buying website: http://carwoo.com/ I haven't tried it, but heard good things. For a lot of brands (especially non-luxury Japanese) new cars are cost-effective right now.

I used CarWoo a couple months ago to buy a new Subaru. It worked fine. Since I wanted an unusual combination of color, trim, and options it was helpful that I could leave my request open for a while and let the offers roll in from multiple dealers until I found one that matched my requirements. Personally I cared more about getting exactly what I wanted than paying the lowest possible price.

They could do better in filtering our junk offers. I clearly stated that I wanted a silver car without a sunroof but still had dealers spamming me with offers for a red one with a sunroof or whatever.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#147

Post by damoncali »

beagle3 wrote: post #136
damoncali wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Singapore rigs its elections.

The US has simulated freedom with the two party systems. I don't know whether elections are rigged in the US or Singapore; but to assume that US elections is fraud free is a bit naive (see recent voter registration scandals for the prelude; and follow BlackBoxVoting for the details that humans can't directly follow). If you assume the fraud magnitude is trivial, or that it cancels out, you better have a good explanat…

I don mean fraud. The elections are rigged by the ruling party in Singapore. They time them to occur only when they are strong politically and dont give their opposition a realistic chance to compete. Th us is far from perfect, but is a stretch to all Singapore a democracy at all. Singapore is not place where one is free. It is a place where one is free to do what is in the interest of the government. Luckily, they are a very talented crew, and it works out well- for now. But to put a place where one cannot buy chewing gum at the top of some list of free societies is an interesting choice. The place is downright Orwellian.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#148

Post by mcguire »

jetti wrote: post #28
jwr wrote: post #20

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

Not to mention that there are some states that just prohibit the sales of vehicles on Sunday. That is what I find amazing. I can't imagine being told that one day a week I'm not allowed to sell my product.

There are some very strange laws. In Texas, IIRC, a vehicle dealer must be closed on either Saturday or Sunday. So you get some dealers advertising, "Go see everyone else on Saturday, buy from us on Sunday!" And then, there are recreational vehicle dealers that have to close their motorhome sales one of the two days, but can sell trailers all weekend long.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#149

Post by mcguire »

chucknelson wrote: post #64
randomdata wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of enjoyed buying my last vehicle. For some reason, the salesman had it in his mind that I could not afford the one I was looking at. I was the one trying to talk him into adding options, while he was trying to take them away to keep the costs lower. Once I finally talked him into the one I wanted, he, without asking, starts filling out the loan application. I'm like "umm, I'm going to be paying for it in cash…

I've always heard that you get a better price if you tell them you're paying in cash...is this just bad info?

OTOH, if you're buying a used vehicle from a private owner, cash in hand is a pretty strong argument.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#150

Post by mcguire »

moheeb wrote: post #121
jetti wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do that online any time. What you see in the lot on Sunday is the same as what you would see online. But as a resident of one of those states as well, I hate it. Not because I want to buy a car on Sunday but because if the dealership is open the service section of the dealership would also be open.

No, what you see online is a digital representation of a physical product. What you see on the lot is an actual physical product that can be touched and smelled.

...and sat in. Or not, in my 6'5" case.
Post reply on HN