Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Koralm Railway

infrastruktur.oebb.at

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 206 posts

Re: Koralm Railway

#141

Post by tasuki »

syberspace wrote: post #50
tasuki wrote: post #39

> Crossing the Koralpe massif more quickly and with more comfort. That’s what the future of train travel from Graz to Klagenfurt looks like. With the Koralm Railway, you will arrive at your destination even quicker. The fastest connection will shrink from three hours to just 45 minutes. There aren't any big mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt. It's an hour on the Autobahn. That it took three hours by train... well,…

There is, the Koralpe massif. Previously to get to Klagenfurt from Graz you first had to go north through a somewhat tight valley for about 50km before the train would turn to the south-west towards Klagenfurt, again tough alpine valleys, and with a lot of stops inbetween. The new route goes south/south-west immediatley, is very straight compared to the old route, and has at most 3 stops.

> [...] and with a lot of stops inbetween. The new route [...] has at most 3 stops.

I think this explains a lot. Adding a couple of stops adds a lot of time to the total!

Re: Koralm Railway

#142

Post by bluGill »

MangoToupe wrote: post #103
bluGill wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT is also correct - it costs way too much for what we got. It will be nice for future generations that don't have to pay for it, but it doesn't look like a good investment. Now if the costs were more reasonable it could be a great investment.

I don't see how you're justifying this. Yes the costs overran, but the investment would have been worth it at 4x the end cost. It made boston one of the nicest cities in the country, even if it still sucks ass to drive in.

The costs overran by a lot. Enough that my tiny city in the middle of nowhere would not benefit even though if the costs has been more reaonable we could get something. It might be worth it for Boston - I don't live there, but for a large number of places it makes such a large project something we will never do. The investment at a reasonable price would be wroth for more because it allows similar investments elsewhere and so the total pay off would be much higher.

Re: Koralm Railway

#144

Post by mytailorisrich »

saubeidl wrote: post #136
mytailorisrich wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I remember Wales received a lot of EU funding for infrastructure and there used to be those "funded by the EU" signs everywhere. They voted in favour of Brexit. I think this sort of things does little to convince people. The road network was there and working before the EU, it is still there and working now. Especially, people were well aware that the UK was a consistent net contributor to the EU budget so knew…

It was still a benefit for Wales. Yes, the UK government was a net contributor, but the UK government likes to concentrate its spending around London. EU funding was specifically given out to poorer regions (like Wales) that were long neglected by their national governments.

Well, except that in the UK the devolved nations (Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland) receive more funding from the government than England does. For instance, Wales received 20% more money per person than England does.

Devolution itself also means that, effectively, the UK government is in charge of England while the devolved governments are in charge of their respective nations, so just looking at which projects the UK government funds is misleading.

So, it is not accurate to say that regions are neglected, and you might even argue that ultimately the South East of England and England overall fund the whole country...

Overall, I do not know if that was specifically a benefit for Wales. Obviously in the end the Welsh decided that the cons outweighted the pros, anyway.

Re: Koralm Railway

#145

Post by tasuki »

tremon wrote: post #63
tasuki wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the funding billboards for, anyway? They're an eyesore, and it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway. They should say "financed by you", or better yet, not exist to begin with.

it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway That's simply not true, the EU subsidy budget is dwarfed by each country's national budget. From https://eubudget.europarl.europa.eu/en/how-it-works/ : The EU budget [..] accounts annually for around 1% of the EU's GNI (gross national income), or around €160-180 billion. National public spending by EU countries averages nearly 50% of their respective GNI.

> That's simply not true

I'm not sure I understand your comment tbh. Where does the money come from, if not from EU taxpayers?

> the EU subsidy budget is dwarfed by each country's national budget.

My comment had nothing to do with that.

The page you linked has a question "How is the budget funded", which lists the revenues:

> Another difference between the EU budget and national budgets is that the EU lacks direct taxation power to finance its budget and instead relies on revenues called “own resources”.

> These revenues are:

> - Custom duties on imports into the EU

> - A small part of the VAT collected by each EU country

> - A contribution based on the amount of non-recycled plastic waste in each EU country

> - National contribution from each EU country based on its gross national income (GNI). All member states contribute according to their share in the combined GNI of EU countries. This is the largest share of the own resources.

I'd say all of that comes from the EU taxpayers.

Re: Koralm Railway

#146

Post by MangoToupe »

bluGill wrote: post #142
MangoToupe wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you're justifying this. Yes the costs overran, but the investment would have been worth it at 4x the end cost. It made boston one of the nicest cities in the country, even if it still sucks ass to drive in.

The costs overran by a lot. Enough that my tiny city in the middle of nowhere would not benefit even though if the costs has been more reaonable we could get something. It might be worth it for Boston - I don't live there, but for a large number of places it makes such a large project something we will never do. The investment at a reasonable price would be wroth for more because it allows similar investments elsewhe…

I live way out in the bumfuck of nowhere, way west of western mass. It's still obvious the big dig was worth it at 4x the cost it actually ran. Yes, even though my taxpayer dollars haven't returned to me in any way I can straightforwardly estimate or point to.

Of course, the big dig is no excuse to not invest outside of the Boston metro area. But that's a completely different argument than saying the investment wasn't worth it.

> The investment at a reasonable price would be wroth for more because it allows similar investments elsewhere and so the total pay off would be much higher.

This is an insane way to reason about investments. No wonder this country is such a shithole. Obviously we should do similar big-dig style investments outside of Boston. Obviously investments like the big dig prompt investments nearby. But individualistic assholes like you force us all to commit suicide instead because you can't use your fucking brain to connect why investment now means we all eat good later.

Re: Koralm Railway

#147

Post by tasuki »

brnt wrote: post #56
tasuki wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the funding billboards for, anyway? They're an eyesore, and it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway. They should say "financed by you", or better yet, not exist to begin with.

They put them up with and without the EU funding info, right? Here most is not EU funded, but there are still signs, because how else do you know what is going on? Or are big construction projects completely unsigned where you live?

They used to be unsigned. I agree it's good for the funding to be transparent, but a government and/or EU-wide website would be fine to list the supported projects. No need for ugly signs.

Re: Koralm Railway

#148

Post by tasuki »

preisschild wrote: post #52
tasuki wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the funding billboards for, anyway? They're an eyesore, and it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway. They should say "financed by you", or better yet, not exist to begin with.

I (pro-EU Austrian) think they are great, as they show that we also get huge benefits through our EU membership and that we can do such enormous megaprojects only together Also, eyesore? What do you have against the EU flag?

> Also, eyesore? What do you have against the EU flag?

I like the EU flag. I do not like the billboards. They just do not look good. Plant an actual flag there instead? I'd prefer that!

Re: Koralm Railway

#149

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

eCa wrote: post #140
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Italy a little geologically unstable? I'd be a bit nervous, going through a long tunnel, in a region known for vulcanism and earthquakes.

The 57 km Gotthard Base Tunnel has been in operation since 2016. There's also a 3km long tunnel between France and Italy that opened in 1882. Nowadays there's probably hundreds of 1km+ tunnels in the Alps.

Well, from the other responses, it seems the Italian Alps are pretty stable.

Re: Koralm Railway

#150

Post by m4rtink »

manarth wrote: post #43
monster_truck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rock they dug through for Koralm is, no hyperbole, about as bad as it gets. It's the gnarliest part of what's under the Alps and required them switching back and forth between boring and blasting. Being two separate tunnels, it also needs twice as much excavation work. It's also ~25x deeper than Toei Oedo (4000ft vs 157ft). At 4000ft the rock itself is 45-50C!

The Koralm tunnel has a different temperature gradient, as the depth is a consequence of a mountain on top of the tunnel, rather than an increased proximity to the earth crust/core. > "The undisturbed rock temperature varies from 10 °C, in tunnel sections close to the portals, to 32 °C in the tunnel centre" 32°C is still a significant engineering concern, but not as consequential as 45–50°C. https://www.sciencedirect…

A tunnel on the Kurobe gorge railway (originally used for dam contruction, now partially open to tourists) has reached 160 °C (!!) during construction, but has cooled down to manageable 40 °C since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurobe_Seny%C5%8D_Railway

Post reply on HN