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DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

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Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#141

Post by seanw265 »

TIPSIO wrote: post #9

It's awesome that stuff like this is open source, but even if you have a basement rig with 4 NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5090 graphic cards ($15-20k machine), can it even run with any reasonable context window that isn't like a crawling 10/tps? Frontier models are far exceeding even the most hardcore consumer hobbyist requirements. This is even further

FWIW it looks like OpenRouter's two providers for this model (one of whom being Deepseek itself) are only running the model around 28tps at the moment.

https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v3.2

This only bolsters your point. Will be interesting to see if this changes as the model is adopted more widely.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#142

Post by fragmede »

ForceBru wrote: post #114
catigula wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're pouring money to disrupt American AI markets and efforts. They do this in countless other fields. It's a model of massive state funding -> give it away for cut-rate -> dominate the market -> reap the rewards. It's a very transparent, consistent strategy. AI is a little different because it has geopolitical implications.

When it's a competition among individual producers, we call it "a free market" and praise Hal Varian. When it's a competition among countries, it's suddenly threatening to "disrupt American AI markets and efforts". The obvious solution here is to pour money into LLM research too. Massive state funding -> provide SOTA models for free -> dominate the market -> reap the rewards (from the free models).

It's not like the US doesn't face similar accusations. One such case is the WTO accusing Boeing of receiving illegal subsidies from the US government. https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/wto-says-us-ga...

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#143

Post by tokioyoyo »

ptsneves wrote: post #107
jascha_eng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh they need control of models to be able to censor and ensure whatever happens inside the country with AI stays under their control. But the open-source part? Idk I think they do it to mess with the US investment and for the typical open source reasons of companies: community, marketing, etc. But tbh especially the messing with the US, as a european with no serious competitor, I can get behind.

This is the rare earth minerals dumping all over again. Devalue to such a price as to make the market participants quit, so they can later have a strategic stranglehold on the supply. This is using open source in a bit of different spirit than the hacker ethos, and I am not sure how I feel about it. It is a kind of cheat on the fair market but at the same time it is also costly to China and its capital costs may beco…

I mentioned this before as well, but AI-competition within China doesn’t care that much about the western companies. Internal market is huge, and they know winner-takes-it-all in this space is real.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#144

Post by Jedd »

ptsneves wrote: post #107
jascha_eng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh they need control of models to be able to censor and ensure whatever happens inside the country with AI stays under their control. But the open-source part? Idk I think they do it to mess with the US investment and for the typical open source reasons of companies: community, marketing, etc. But tbh especially the messing with the US, as a european with no serious competitor, I can get behind.

This is the rare earth minerals dumping all over again. Devalue to such a price as to make the market participants quit, so they can later have a strategic stranglehold on the supply. This is using open source in a bit of different spirit than the hacker ethos, and I am not sure how I feel about it. It is a kind of cheat on the fair market but at the same time it is also costly to China and its capital costs may beco…

> It is a kind of cheat on the fair market ...

I am very curious on your definition and usage of 'fair' there, and whether you would call the LLM etc sector as it stands now, but hypothetically absent deepseek say, a 'fair market'. (If not, why not?)

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#145

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

0xWTF wrote: post #121
StealthyStart wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the real cause. At the enterprise level, trust outweighs cost. My company hires agencies and consultants who provide the same advice as our internal team; this is not to imply that our internal team is incorrect; rather, there is credibility that if something goes wrong, the decision consequences can be shifted, and there is a reason why companies continue to hire the same four consulting firms. It's trust, w…

Children do the same thing intuitively: parents continually complain that their children don't listen to them. But as soon as someone else tells them to "cover their nose", "chew with their mouth closed", "don't run with scissors", whatever, they listen and integrate that guidance into their behavior. What's harder to observe is all the external guidance they get that they don't integrate until their parents tell the…

Or in many cases they go over to their grandparents house and they let them run wild and all of the sudden your parents have “McDonald’s money” for their grandkids when they never had it for you.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#146

Post by Lucasoato »

paulvnickerson wrote: post #135
zug_zug wrote: post #16

Well props to them for continuing to improve, winning on cost-effectiveness, and continuing to publicly share their improvements. Hard not to root for them as a force to prevent an AI corporate monopoly/duopoly.

[flagged]

> CrowdStrike researchers next prompted DeepSeek-R1 to build a web application for a Uyghur community center. The result was a complete web application with password hashing and an admin panel, but with authentication completely omitted, leaving the entire system publicly accessible.

> When the identical request was resubmitted for a neutral context and location, the security flaws disappeared. Authentication checks were implemented, and session management was configured correctly. The smoking gun: political context alone determined whether basic security controls existed.

Holy shit, these political filters seem embedded directly in the model weights.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#147

Post by kriops »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #98
echelon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if this kills Google and OpenAI. I hope it does, though I'm doubtful because distribution is important. You can't beat "ChatGPT" as a brand in laypeople's minds (unless perhaps you give them a massive "Temu: Shop Like A Billionaire" commercial campaign). Closed source AI is almost by design morphing into an industrial, infrastructure-heavy rocket science that commoners can't keep up with. The companies p…

I can’t think of a single company I’ve worked with as a consultant that I could convince to use DeepSeek because of its ties with China even if I explained that it was hosted on AWS and none of the information would go to China. Even when the technical people understood that, it would be too much of a political quagmire within their company when it became known to the higher ups. It just isn’t worth the political cap…

[flagged]

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#148

Post by tokioyoyo »

catigula wrote: post #90
jascha_eng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh they need control of models to be able to censor and ensure whatever happens inside the country with AI stays under their control. But the open-source part? Idk I think they do it to mess with the US investment and for the typical open source reasons of companies: community, marketing, etc. But tbh especially the messing with the US, as a european with no serious competitor, I can get behind.

They're pouring money to disrupt American AI markets and efforts. They do this in countless other fields. It's a model of massive state funding -> give it away for cut-rate -> dominate the market -> reap the rewards. It's a very transparent, consistent strategy. AI is a little different because it has geopolitical implications.

I can’t believe I’m shilling for China in these comments, but how different it is for company A getting blank check investments from VCs and wink-wink support from the government in the west? And AI-labs in China has been getting funding internally in the companies for a while now, before the LLM-era.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#149

Post by jascha_eng »

ptsneves wrote: post #107
jascha_eng wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh they need control of models to be able to censor and ensure whatever happens inside the country with AI stays under their control. But the open-source part? Idk I think they do it to mess with the US investment and for the typical open source reasons of companies: community, marketing, etc. But tbh especially the messing with the US, as a european with no serious competitor, I can get behind.

This is the rare earth minerals dumping all over again. Devalue to such a price as to make the market participants quit, so they can later have a strategic stranglehold on the supply. This is using open source in a bit of different spirit than the hacker ethos, and I am not sure how I feel about it. It is a kind of cheat on the fair market but at the same time it is also costly to China and its capital costs may beco…

Do they actually spend that much though? I think they are getting similar results with much fewer resources.

It's also a bit funny that providing free models is probably the most communist thing China has done in a long time.

Re: DeepSeek-v3.2: Pushing the frontier of open large language models [pdf]

#150

Post by amunozo »

catigula wrote: post #81

To push back on naivety I'm sensing here I think it's a little silly to see Chinese Communist Party backed enterprise as somehow magnanimous and without ulterior, very harmful motive.

The motive is to destroy the American supremacy on AI, it's not that deep. This is much easier to do open sourcing the models than competing directly, and this can have good ramifications for everybody, even if the motive is "bad".
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