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EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

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Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#141

Post by roenxi »

g-b-r wrote: post #77
bigbadfeline wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about going out in front of your city hall with a poster saying no-chat-control? Unorganized, individual acts cannot change anything in the EU. > You risk nothing, do you? Given the legislative maze the EU has become, you can't be sure of that, but you surely gain nothing. The conditions in Europe are quite specific, and in that environment, pan-EU legislation (except the customs union) should be optional for…

Individual acts can actually have more resonance, if carried out with conviction and commitment (and if the cause is just). See Greta Thunberg; she might not have managed to save the planet yet, but she sure got the attention of the world (of course, however big a problem chat control is, climate change is a much bigger issue)

Greta Thunberg achieved nothing useful in practice and if the best mascot for a movement is an autistic teenager it bodes poorly for that movement's chances.

She personally is perfectly successful, but in terms of political effectiveness people should model themselves off movements that achieved something.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#142

Post by permo-w »

bigbadfeline wrote: post #45
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about going out in front of your city hall with a poster saying no-chat-control? You risk nothing, do you?

> What about going out in front of your city hall with a poster saying no-chat-control? Unorganized, individual acts cannot change anything in the EU. > You risk nothing, do you? Given the legislative maze the EU has become, you can't be sure of that, but you surely gain nothing. The conditions in Europe are quite specific, and in that environment, pan-EU legislation (except the customs union) should be optional for…

>you surely gain nothing

one of the main reasons chat control keeps failing is because of protests all over Europe. without it, chat control may already be a thing

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#143

Post by cbeach »

concinds wrote: post #120
spurgu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're describing is how the process in the EU works. So in essence it is "the EU". It doesn't seem to have any limits or restrictions on what it can do as an institution. It forced idiotic bottlecaps on all of us for shit's sake... and it has little consideration for privacy laws or constitutions of individuals, otherwise this proposal would've been thrown out automatically each time, if there was anything rese…

But the national governments are the ones who gave themselves that power in the first place. Because they wanted to be able to do shit like this. Hopefully the EU Parliament will stop them. But the takeaway from this shouldn't be: "screw the EU", it should be: make the EU more democratic, and give more power to the parliament and less to the backroom machinations of member states. That's exactly what the pro-EU refor…

If it were national governments making laws like this (as opposed to the EU), citizens would be free to move to other European countries that respected their basic civil liberties. The first country that implemented Chat Control would suffer immediate brain drain, and it would be a lesson to governments elsewhere.

However, because the EU forces all countries to move in lock-step, it means citizens are denied the freedom to vote with their feet. They cannot move to the country next door. They'd need to flee to another continent, which is a much more significant move. The feedback loop (i.e. people voting with their feet due to govt policy) is then more coarse-grained, and less obvious for all to see.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#144

Post by Maxion »

spurgu wrote: post #103
8fingerlouie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have removed the backdoor paragraph, and inserted a new one that states that scanning is entirely voluntary and best effort, and also state that the EU cannot force them to scan. As far as the mass surveillance scanning goes, it has completely been removed, and what remains is still the mandatory age checks, which might be problematic. From reading the specification, it appears to be reasonably well designed, wh…

Problem is that once you've gotten this thing through to begin with it's comparatively easy to make slight amendments later, also of course with the justification of "protecting the children".

More like: Authorities will look more closely at those who don't scan, so you'll be harassed until you comply. E.g. just like how many authorities consider using a VPN === user is doing something criminal.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#145

Post by orwin »

rightbyte wrote: post #98
mckirk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I fully agree with your sentiment, I'd like to take the opportunity to share a favorite fun-fact of mine: the frogs in the not-jumping-out experiment had their brains removed beforehand. Which might make the analogy more apt, actually, considering how much under siege our attention is these days.

Really? So "boiling the frog" saying should really mean "peripheral reflexes does not react to slow changes"?

Yes. If you slowly boil a frog with a brain, it will jump out once the temperature is uncomfortable.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#146

Post by Flere-Imsaho »

Seeing this as an opportunity: this further solidifies the need for opensource and decentralisation.

Chat apps should be opensource, E2E encrypted, and decentralised. In 2025 we still don't have that in any meaningly manner - Signal perhaps comes the closest, but it's centralised and controlled by a US organisation. The moats are deep within the chat app space, and getting the "network effect" is going to be really tough.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#147

Post by orwin »

permo-w wrote: post #139
mckirk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I fully agree with your sentiment, I'd like to take the opportunity to share a favorite fun-fact of mine: the frogs in the not-jumping-out experiment had their brains removed beforehand. Which might make the analogy more apt, actually, considering how much under siege our attention is these days.

>the not-jumping-out experiment you mean cooking a frog? I'm not aware that the phrase refers to an experiment, rather a cooking pot, and anything with its brain removed is dead anyway? anyway, the same can equally be said for flies. if you swat fast at a landed fly it will notice and fly away; however if you bring the swatter close slowly and evenly the fly will allow it close enough that there's no escape

If you slowly boil any animal with a brain that can move out your boiling recipient, it will move out once the temperature is uncomfortable, way before any danger.

The expression always seemed dumb to me, but now that I know where it came from, I'm vindicated.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#148

Post by orwin »

8fingerlouie wrote: post #74
mrtksn wrote: post #46

>At the beginning of the month, the Danish Presidency decided to change its approach with a new compromise text that makes the chat scanning voluntary, instead. Hmm, so this will probably make the life for those who don't scan quite hard and if they experience a high profile scandal getting out of it will not be easy I assume. I'm not sure what to think of it, not being mandatory and requiring risk assessment sounds…

They have removed the backdoor paragraph, and inserted a new one that states that scanning is entirely voluntary and best effort, and also state that the EU cannot force them to scan. As far as the mass surveillance scanning goes, it has completely been removed, and what remains is still the mandatory age checks, which might be problematic. From reading the specification, it appears to be reasonably well designed, wh…

The age check is already present in France, since I think a month? I will probably test it soon to see how inconvenient/insecure it is, but from what I read it seems to be well designed for privacy.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#149

Post by sph »

darqis wrote: post #136

The worst thing is that it's sold as child protection in all official publications of the EU And no one cares. No one. There is no outcry, no protest, no shitstorm. Nothing. I don't understand. Do people not care if everyone is able to read and analyze, store their private communication?

Laymen actually do care. But mass media does the sanewashing, and you can’t blame the average Joe of not having a deep understanding of what this entails and that it is not to protect the children.

Governmental interests benefit if we blame ourselves and other citizens for this shit passing. It is clear that modern democracies are people in power (which includes the media) vs the masses.

Re: EU Council approves Chat Control mandate for negotiation with Parliament

#150

Post by DrProtic »

permo-w wrote: post #142
bigbadfeline wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about going out in front of your city hall with a poster saying no-chat-control? Unorganized, individual acts cannot change anything in the EU. > You risk nothing, do you? Given the legislative maze the EU has become, you can't be sure of that, but you surely gain nothing. The conditions in Europe are quite specific, and in that environment, pan-EU legislation (except the customs union) should be optional for…

>you surely gain nothing one of the main reasons chat control keeps failing is because of protests all over Europe. without it, chat control may already be a thing

On one hand you have politicians whose job is to implement policy, on the other you have people who have to go out of their way to protest.

In the end politicians win, simply because regular people have other jobs.

You get initial push from protests, but in the end time works against them.

So no, protest are not the solution, just a delay.

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