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Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

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Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#141
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't remove it. They gave it to you. They just don't have to keep giving you more stuff. Many people think they're owed more software, including fixes to software, without compensating the laborer. That worldview is the real problem. So, we have a variety of licensing styles that meet various goals. People can pick what suits their needs and wants. That's a good thing.

> They can't remove it. They gave it to you. They just don't have to keep giving you more stuff. Who is "they" in this context? A permissive license allows anyone to take someone else's work, profit from it, and never contribute back to the original project. For someone advocating for fairness, it's remarkable how you ignore this very real and common scenario. > Many people think they're owed more software, including…

Re fairness

Not giving anything back is fair because the author's license specifically allows them to do that. A gift has no expectation of anything in return. God blesses such generosity because it's a a truly, selfless act.

re compensation

Compensation is not orthogonal to FLOSS. Copyright was mainly designed to ensure work couldn't be shared without paying the author. Anything given for free dramatically decreases the chance of getting paid. OSS and FLOSS almost guarantee no money is made on standalone software but GPL with CLA's allows dual licensing to recover some.

If anyone uses permissive licenses, it's a gift where they're not (in legal terms) expecting money. Some try to sell it or ask for donations, too, which is incompatible with the license. The free license usually undermines that. It works for some people to some degree, though.

Re roll backs

I didn't argue against any scenario. The original person I replied to appeared to be arguing that it was evil to give software away with no obligations. I had to explain what a gift is and why it's morally good to give. I believe the reason is years of people promoting FOSS politics which I now see are rooted in ideas similar to socialism or communism. It wouldn't surprise me if Stallman was a closet communist and just repackaged those ideas into software licensing.

(Note: I feel like I'm going to have to think more on that political angle given I've been influenced by such people for years on these sites. I'll do a fresh take at some point.)

On companies being unsustainable, I've already explained what happened. Their goal included selfish gain (money/contributions) from selfish entities who normally take but don't give. Their goal was also to build, individually or collectively, a shared work. They used a license that said it's a one-time gift with no obligations. So, entities took the gift and felt no obligations to return anything. Surprise!

Now, they've changed to licenses that suit their commercial and/or property goals. That may or may not work for them. Whereas, the companies successfully marketing proprietary software are able to build it up to their hearts' content. Some companies give out the source or dual license under GPL/AGPL. They should probably do Parity License to close remaining gaps and see if FOSS people are really about the free commons.

License Zero and Polyform have new licenses to help. I conceptualized some in the past that allow modifications, forks, etc so long as the customer keeps paying. Then, redistribution among paying customers. I'd like to see more models for people aiming for sustainability with software freedoms baked in.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT is throwing a free party where food and drinks are paid for, and copyleft is where food is paid for but you BYOB. Both are fine, so what's the problem?

That's my question. Why is this thread full of license choice flamewar? Do we have nothing of substance to contribute? Here, I'll make a substantive contribution. I hope this succeeds and causes a lowest-common denominator Linux ABI to exist that user-land can target, thus freeing us all from the Linux kernel as the only viable option. Solaris/Illumos, the BSDs, and even Windows have all gone through one or two phase…

Someone implied that people were evil if they gave away software with nothing asked in return. I didn't think the author deserved that. I'm also starting to think such people are at war with both private property and generosity for political reasons leaning toward socialism or communism. That segment also tries to pressure others to adopt their ideas.

So, I defended the author and the concept of generosity. I also tried to help FOSS people reframe what their doing as collective property or work so everyone understands the tradeoffs better. They confuse people by advocating for "free" or "freedom" with licenses that take away freedoms from authors. It's like they're redefining words to have non-standard meanings but get angry when people act on standard morals or word usages.

I'm also starting to think the confusion was intentional because many of their arguments look like socialism or communism disguised as software advice. We also see the same failure modes across most projects and products. Like communist nations (eg Shenzhen), we see the GPL projects succeed best when they relied on capitalists instead of communist principles for code contributions. So, I'll eventually look to see if people like Stallman were communist and if this was sneaky, ideological warfare or subversion. Like we see with critical theory ("woke") proponents constantly repacking their ideas (eg DEI, Codes of Conduct) to snesk them in where they'd be rejected after peer review. I feel like so much fighting online started with people doing something evil built on a conflict-oriented philosophy (Marxism/Communism) that causes the same destructive effects everywhere people promoted it.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#143
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on the progress. If I may ask, I'm curious what considerations have motivated your choice of licence (especially since pushover licences seem extremely popular with all kinds of different Rust projects, as opposed to copyleft).

What is a "pushover" license?

'Pushover licence' is a licence which may grant freedom, but doesn't care to protect it. One may modify software under a pushover licence and release their modifications as non-free software. Another, more common name is 'permissive licence'.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#144
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations on the progress. If I may ask, I'm curious what considerations have motivated your choice of licence (especially since pushover licences seem extremely popular with all kinds of different Rust projects, as opposed to copyleft).

Copyleft doesn't work well with Rust's ecosystem of many small crates and heavy reliance on libraries alongside static linking. If one library be GPLv2 and the other GPLv3 they couldn't be used together in one project. LGPL solves nothing because it's all statically linked anyway. And yes, one could licence under both under the user's choice but then GPLv4 comes out and the process repeats itself, and yes one could u…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all of these are solved problems.

LGPL should only pose a problem if you explicitly want your program to be used with non-free software. And then only if said non-free software doesn't give you a way to rebuild it yourself, should you want to modify the LGPL program. (So not a problem for open-core or public-source projects, either.)

If, for some reason, you insist on allowing static linking for all the projects, I think the MPL allows this. (People often seem to think of the LGPL, but it's not the only weak-copyleft licence around.)

Otherwise, when releasing your project under GPLv3+, you don't have to put blind faith into the FSF; you can designate a proxy which will decide whether the new version should be allowed for your project or not. This proxy can be yourself, or it can be a different organisation you choose to trust. Plus, I'm pretty sure the GPL allows you to make linking exceptions of your liking.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

I take this as an oblique critique of TFA's choice of license. What's it to you? Why must we all use the GPL always in order to satisfy busybodies?

>> I take this as an oblique critique of TFA's choice of license. What's it to you? Why must we all use the GPL always in order to satisfy busybodies?

Thank you for reading it correctly. I originally had a to make sure nobody thought I liked the license choice. What's it to me? Well someone posted it to HN here so we could comment on it, so I did.

I think the MIT license has its place, but IMHO it does not belong on an OS like that. Reason is indicated in my original comment.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

Thay "holier than thou" attitude from BSD/MIT proponents seems like some kind of ego talking. Freedom to deny others the freedom you had is not noble.

GPL is a gift that keeps giving.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#147
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

I agree, and even if a company doesn't give back, they further the popularity and sustainability of the project. Isn't Python an MIT-like license (PSFL)? As well as React and Godot? And Tensorflow is also permissive with Apache 2.0, corrrect?

Godot is meant to be used for commercial games, so it should have an MIT, BSD, or LGPL license.

I'm done with proprietary operating systems and IMHO everyone should be. There's no reason to support that.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my question. Why is this thread full of license choice flamewar? Do we have nothing of substance to contribute? Here, I'll make a substantive contribution. I hope this succeeds and causes a lowest-common denominator Linux ABI to exist that user-land can target, thus freeing us all from the Linux kernel as the only viable option. Solaris/Illumos, the BSDs, and even Windows have all gone through one or two phase…

Someone implied that people were evil if they gave away software with nothing asked in return. I didn't think the author deserved that. I'm also starting to think such people are at war with both private property and generosity for political reasons leaning toward socialism or communism. That segment also tries to pressure others to adopt their ideas. So, I defended the author and the concept of generosity. I also tr…

There is a huge distinction between socialism/communism and Free Software.

1) the marginal cost of software is zero.

2) some software is becoming more like infrastructure that everyone uses.

In the physical world, some infrastructure is privatized, some is regulated, and some is provided by the government. But going back to point 1 we see that privatization makes even less sense (to society) with software.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. The obligation is not to the author of the code, it is to the public. MIT-style licenses are gifts to people and companies who produce code and software, copyleft licenses are gifts to the public. I don't give a shit about the happiness of programmers any more than the happiness of garbage collectors, sorry. I d…

A gift is when you do something without expecting anything in return, esp compensation. If I use GPL'd code, I have to keep releasing my modifications for free because it's mandated. I have to do that even if I do 1000 hours of labor but they gave me 30 min of it. So, it's also near-infinite work required in return for finite work they did. And I have to bind others to this with my own work. That's not someone giving…

>> That's not someone giving me a gift.

You're right. GPL code is not a gift to you its a gift to the public.

Dont try to build your house or business in a national park.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#150
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gift where the recipient can remove the freedoms that they've been enjoying themselves is a bad deal for ensuring those freedoms are available to everyone. A permissive license is a terrible idea for a F/LOSS kernel. This is the paradox of tolerance, essentially. Also, seeing F/LOSS as a "gift" is an awful way of looking at it.

They can't remove it. They gave it to you. They just don't have to keep giving you more stuff. Many people think they're owed more software, including fixes to software, without compensating the laborer. That worldview is the real problem. So, we have a variety of licensing styles that meet various goals. People can pick what suits their needs and wants. That's a good thing.

>> Many people think they're owed more software, including fixes to software, without compensating the laborer. That worldview is the real problem.

Many people (corporations) think they're owed more money beyond the labor. This is why SaaS is a major business model these days. The marginal cost of software is zero, and yet people expect to keep getting paid for it over and over.

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