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A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

bbc.co.uk

141–150 of 201 posts

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#141
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse > religion itself is the problem Religious flamewar isn't allowed here, so please don't post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html --- Edit: It also looks like your account has been using HN primarily for ideological/political/religious battle. That's not allowed here (see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=c…

So we're supposed to simultaneously discuss the article (General Franco's extremist Catholic task forces), but not identify the religious tropes behind this? I read the article, and discussing the article. And as hackers, im curious as how to fix the problems.

You can discuss things like that without denouncing entire groups of people and without inflammatory rhetoric.

It's not hard to understand where the line is if you've reviewed https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and genuinely want to use HN as intended.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#142

I'm not going to comment on the words chosen by BBC to portray the case - I think there are a lot of other better entries on HN where BBC bias (or the lack of it) can be discussed. But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and…

> There's this old 6 episodes TV Series from 1983, that really gives a good perspective of how awful it all was

Playlist of the miniseries from the same channel:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxZAPogJjW_h2JbgYOgO3GZiI...

The Spanish Civil War (1983)

https://imdb.com/title/tt1718608/

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans are always religious, no exception. You should get out more.

It’s true. The supposedly “secular people” I know are always prattling about “human dignity” and stuff that sounds very religious. They don’t think of humans as walking meat like a non-religious person would.

Are you being satirical?

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#144
post #140

I'm not going to comment on the words chosen by BBC to portray the case - I think there are a lot of other better entries on HN where BBC bias (or the lack of it) can be discussed. But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and…

"that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections" This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.

As you might understand (or avoid to). Franco didn't wake up one day and decided to start a civil war out of nowhere. In the period of 1933-1936, there was major violence against the legitimately elected Right-Wing government from Marxist groups that adopted a revolutionary approach to take power in Spain:

"The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization within the Socialists. The increasing militancy within the Socialist workers was followed by Francisco Largo Caballero's adopting a revolutionary Marxist rhetoric which justified revolutionism as a way to combat rising fascism, uncharacteristic of European social democratic mainstream and the reformist traditions of the PSOE.[69] The CNT adopted a similar rhetoric in the wake of the elections, threatening with a revolution if "Fascist tendencies" would win the elections.[70] Open violence occurred in the streets of Spanish cities, and militancy continued to increase,[71] reflecting a movement towards radical upheaval, rather than peaceful means as solutions.[72] A small insurrection by anarchists occurred in December 1933 in response to CEDA's victory, in which around 100 people died.[73]

[...]

Fairly well armed revolutionaries managed to take the whole province of Asturias, murdering numerous policemen, clergymen and civilians, destroying religious buildings including churches, convents and part of the university at Oviedo.[75] Rebels in the occupied areas proclaimed revolution for the workers and abolished the existing currency.[76] The uprising was crushed in two weeks by the Spanish Navy and the Spanish Republican Army, the latter using mainly Moorish colonial troops from Spanish Morocco."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#145
post #31
post #2

A familiar story even today in the U.S: https://time.com/6997172/teen-torture-max-abuse-documentary/ “They are often a last resort for parents struggling with children with behavioral problems, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse issues. Depending on the state, these rehab centers—a multi-billion-dollar industry—have few regulations, and there are no overarching federal standards governing them. Many are faith-bas…

Meanwhile, we have a crisis in the U.S. of people sleeping and dying in the streets because we shut down all the mental hospitals and involuntary commitment. Every system will have some percentage of adverse outcomes. Approaching the issue emotionally instead of dispassionately and with a view towards typical outcomes is an anti-social and dangerous approach.

... I mean, on what are you basing this assumption? Mass psychiatric institutionalisation has been phased out pretty much everywhere at this point; if your thesis is correct, how do you explain differing rates of homelessness (and in particular unsheltered homelessness, where the US more or less leads the developed world) between the US and other developed countries? Like, it seems more likely to be some other factor.

Ireland, for instance, had the highest rate of psychiatric institutionalisation in the western world in the 60s (some Warsaw Pact countries were likely higher). It was rapidly phased out in the 80s and early 90s. Homelessness (though a persistent problem since the 19th century) remained rather low until the early tens, then rose rapidly. I've never heard of anyone attributing this to the mental hospitals closing 30 years previously (this seems to be a uniquely American belief); it is generally attributed largely to _shortages of housing_ (itself due to the near-total collapse of the construction industry for a decade after the financial crisis).

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#146
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections" This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.

As you might understand (or avoid to). Franco didn't wake up one day and decided to start a civil war out of nowhere. In the period of 1933-1936, there was major violence against the legitimately elected Right-Wing government from Marxist groups that adopted a revolutionary approach to take power in Spain: "The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization…

I would have never thought to see a Franco apologist with my own eyes. Wow, thank you for this unique moment.

Anyhow, Franco was a fascist trash and allied with Hitler and Mussolini. Revolutionaries were mainly anarchists (NOT communists). In fact it's because of Stalin and the communists following him starting an infighting with the anarchists led to the fascist victory.

If the revolutionaries have won, Spain would have been an experimental socialist/anarchist republic. We don't know if ot would have been ended up like USSR. Maybe.

In 1968 though the flight was pretty much about fascism vs democracy.

Oh, last point: Torture is torture.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#147
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Atheism doesn't turn into worship of anything. That's the point of atheism. It is clear to me that you have never met an atheist.

Not directly, but people find ways to believe in a manner analogous to religious beliefs. Faith doesn't have to be directed only at traditional theist objects. Religious or not, people can believe things by faith and by logic.

To give an example, science is not a replacement for philosophy, nor is it implemented perfectly, but some people elevate it far beyond its means to answer certain inquiries. That is irrationality, or faith.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#148
post #31
post #2

A familiar story even today in the U.S: https://time.com/6997172/teen-torture-max-abuse-documentary/ “They are often a last resort for parents struggling with children with behavioral problems, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse issues. Depending on the state, these rehab centers—a multi-billion-dollar industry—have few regulations, and there are no overarching federal standards governing them. Many are faith-bas…

Meanwhile, we have a crisis in the U.S. of people sleeping and dying in the streets because we shut down all the mental hospitals and involuntary commitment. Every system will have some percentage of adverse outcomes. Approaching the issue emotionally instead of dispassionately and with a view towards typical outcomes is an anti-social and dangerous approach.

I think GP has a fair assessment of the reality today, not a distant extrapolation or hypothesis based on emotions.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans are always religious, no exception. You should get out more.

It’s true. The supposedly “secular people” I know are always prattling about “human dignity” and stuff that sounds very religious. They don’t think of humans as walking meat like a non-religious person would.

> “human dignity” and stuff that sounds very religious.

Even bonobo monkeys and elephants understand empathy for others. Should we then assume that monkeys and elephants are very religious, too?

> like a non-religious person would.

Oh, I see you took a lot of care in trying to understand what a "non-religious person" is. Are all church people this smart, too? /s

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#150
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like either someone with very young kids or else someone with a dismissive/naive parenting style. For kids born since the mid-80s “hiding the porn” has been a lot harder than locking magazines in a closet. It’s not a matter of if, but when. And however you feel about porn, it’s infinitely more important to help your kids feel safe talking to you about it than to try and prevent them ever seeing it. Kids who do…

>Sounds like either someone with very young kids or else someone with a dismissive/naive parenting style. Increasingly this is what the tyranny of the majority is in the western world. People who don't have kids, or only limited experience with kids, declaring that parents are neglecting or abusing their children because they don't behave the way the hypothetical ideologically pure parent would. Almost every single o…

Based on the relative numbers, how would this be possible? People who don't have kids can only turn into people who have kids, and as people grow older, they are more likely to have kids. Surely the parents aren't a minority that are being surrounded and cut off.
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