Live data from Hacker News

Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

news.ycombinator.com

141–150 of 185 posts

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#141
post #124
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it's unethical. This is a commercial site, it tries to offer goods in exchange for money, anything that costs money should be emphasized and explained. How would they feel if someone managed to take some of their merchandise by stealth? I don't think this is some grey area: if you tricked me into paying a sum I never chose to pay, you're stealing money off my pocket.

It depends on how you do it, you could definitely use mail laws about unsolicited mail to get a package you didn't solicit delivered to your door. If you can do this then you can keep the goods. The law like anything else is a system, justfab is exploiting it for fun and profit.

If you'd care to re-read the GP post, you'll find he's talking about ethics, not laws.

I really hope you are aware of the difference.

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#142
post #131
post #9

Don't ask for a refund, go to your bank or CC company and charge back the 6 months. That'll hit them where it hurts. Little known fact about chargebacks: the merchant pays an administration fee, typically $20 to $50. Per charge! That is why the smarter scammers refund to everybody who complains, not refunding is plain dumb. This scam has been around for a long time, usually it's adult companies that sell you a 'free'…

However, be careful and only do a chargeback when you are sure you never want to deal with that merchant again. Many will blacklist you if you do a chargeback, because of that high chargeback fee (which they have to pay even if they have sufficient documentation to successfully fight the chargeback). I'm kind of surprised no one has started a service for merchants to warn them of chargeback prone customers (there are…

Look into MaxMind MinFraud. In addition to providing a 'risk score' for your online orders, it's also a kind of collective blacklist like you described. Any MaxMind customer can report an IP or e-mail address as associated with a fraudulent order, and any other MaxMind customer who recently scored an order with the same IP or e-mail gets a warning about the increased risk.

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#143
post #87
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it's unethical. This is a commercial site, it tries to offer goods in exchange for money, anything that costs money should be emphasized and explained. How would they feel if someone managed to take some of their merchandise by stealth? I don't think this is some grey area: if you tricked me into paying a sum I never chose to pay, you're stealing money off my pocket.

That reminds me of certain ads I sometimes see on the french TV for ringtones or silly phone games: if you read the small print you realize they actually offer a membership, not a product, and you actually pay something like 3 euros a week instead of a one-time fee. They call that "clubs" or something. Those ads usually seem to target teenagers (they're mostly on music channels or channels aimed at kids) who probably…

Thankfully that shit has been made illegal in the Netherlands a few years ago. One of the more important motivations was, like you say, how blatantly those scams are targeted at teenagers.

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#145
Could you buy something and cancel your account immediately afterwards, so you just pay once, log in, cancel account, and that's it?

Don't get me wrong, that does not make this right. It's just, I wonder, if their business model is based on these "zombie subscription fees" (as reitzensteinm so aptly called them) would they maybe lose money on actual, singular purchases? (or an unsustainably small profit margin)

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#146
This sounds like the book of the month or CD of the month scams we would get in the postal mail. The first month is free and you buy discounted books or CDs but after that each month you buy one or they charge your credit card each month. Same thing but a web site.

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#147
post #60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how complicated this is, but with 76 million in funding, what are the chances they found a way to process credit cards them selves?

Zero. The credit card processing chain is quite complicated, with banks, card companies, ISPSs, processors and merchants all having fairly clearly delineated roles. A merchant - no matter how big - implementing the whole chain is unheard of. Visa, MC and other cc companies care a lot more about their reputation than they'll even care about a company like this. Much larger fish have been put on the bbq over less subst…

Hasn't Amazon implemented their own?

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#148
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero. The credit card processing chain is quite complicated, with banks, card companies, ISPSs, processors and merchants all having fairly clearly delineated roles. A merchant - no matter how big - implementing the whole chain is unheard of. Visa, MC and other cc companies care a lot more about their reputation than they'll even care about a company like this. Much larger fish have been put on the bbq over less subst…

Hasn't Amazon implemented their own?

Do you have an amazon credit card?

As far as I know they use GE as the issuing bank, they may have other deals in place.

As far as I know - but this may very well be wrong or at least out of date - amazon does not have a banking license and the network used is VISA.

This seems to confirm that:

http://www.cardhub.com/d/amazon-credit-card-1015c/

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#149
Biased answer but with some facts: I'm an investor in the company, and many here on HN know me personally. JustFab is not a scam, and I would not be involved with it if it was -- indeed it's a spectacular and very consumer friendly company that I'm proud to be a part of and I think will be a great success.

This comment thread has been quick to conclude that it is a scam, on some fairly sketchy evidence. While I don't dispute that the author's friends experience might be true, the fact that someone didn't notice that they were signing up for a subscription product is somewhat undermined by the fact it took them 8 months to realize the charge was appearing on their credit card. It's possibly not a person who pays attention to details.

If you want to understand the degree to which the company's customer base understands and is in love with the company, check out their facebook page and the consumer engagement. Here's a pair of shoes they posted for a sneak peak this week: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152125991230508&#3...

90 Comments, 4,800 likes in a few days -- for a commercial promotion. Read the comments on this or any of their threads -- no one is bitching about being scammed or not understanding they are members of a suscription site -- they LOVE it.

Justfab has hundreds of thousands of subscribers. A new subscriber who joined last month will, given churn rates, be likely to be a paying subscriber for more than two years. They will make purchases in more than four months in their first year. They understand the premise: a personal shopper has selected a boutique for them at the beginning of the month, all the products are great value, and their obligation is to come and check the boutique that has been prepared. If they don't want anything that month, they just click skip and they're done.

Now, many of you would clearly prefer a world where you would not have to log in to say "no thanks" -- and that world is available to you at the mall. Justfab shoes are quality identical to shoes twice their price at the mall, because they have crushed the traditional retailer and supply value chain. But to deliver the value that the customers want, they need to be very thoughtful about costs.

The #1 challenge in ecommerce is customer acquisition. Pretty much every company has to spend more to acquire a customer than they will make in margin on the first transaction, so you're dependent on a lifetime value of purchases to make money. The reason few outside of Amazon have been able to make this work, and even Amazon (and it's bought businesses like Zappos and Diapers) make very little money is because you keep having to reacquire the customers to get their business... think of people just clicking through those google ads at the top, whether they've been there before or not.

The idea of the subscription model is to get customers in a regular habit of checking in. When they commit to that, Justfab can in turn commit to pricing for the quality they provide that would be unheard of anywhere else. Justfab's typical customer isn't wealthy but likes to look good, and can't afford to just disregard price, and JF is the place they find a style/quality/affordability combination that works for them.

To be clear: as stated, JustFab is on track to do $100M+ in sales this year, from hundreds of thousands of subscribers who check in every month and understand exactly what they're getting into. The site has a very high net promoter score, a return rate that is less than half of Zappos.

As a general rule, if a customer signs up for a subscription product, doesn't check in and calls in because they got charged, we explain the system and try to keep them as a customer, but if they want a refund they will generally get it. People who don't call for 8 months I'm less sure about what the standard policy is.

If I go to the homepage, the biggest call to action for me (it's customized so not everyone will get the same) is "Buy one get one free sale happening now. JOIN TODAY." If they were trying to trick you, would the call to action say Join?

As has been pointed out, when you join by making your first purchase, the purchase page which others have linked has two key things:

* A very clear description that you are signing up for a subscription program. This says plainly and in bold type, in the same font size as everything else on the page: "If You Do Not Make A Purchase Or Skip The Month By The 5th, You'll Be Charged $39.95 For A Member Credit On The 6th. Each credit can be redeemed for any JustFab style on the site."

* A check box that says you accept the terms of VIP membership. This box is in a clear and large font, uses the word membership, and is not opt-out -- you have to proactively opt-in.

I don't see how a reasonable person could argue that this is a scam or a trick. Not only are the terms presented in plain english and large fonts, the site has a huge number of passionate and loyal customers.

Re: Why was a scam company able to raise $76 Million Series B?

#150
I'd also like to note that you can't cancel online; you have to call them. There's a button to press to cancel, but it just takes you to a page asking you to call them.

If you're intimidated by the thought of a CSR who will try to argue you out of cancelling, it gets easier to click "Skip this month" until you forget, and get charged.

It's a very dodgy business model.

Post reply on HN