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Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

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Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#141

Post by tick_tock_tick »

stego-tech wrote: post #39
danogentili wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current trend in govt regulation is actually going in the opposite direction, with telecom lobbies in Europe pushing for "fair share" (pretty much an implementation through law of what Deutsche Telekom and Vodafone Germany are doing right now) through the Digital Networks Act. South Korea pioneered "fair share" govt regulations in 2016 (which caused Twitch to exit the market in 2024 due the exorbitant "fair share…

Because western governments (and those whose governments were modeled from western regimes - like post-war South Korea and Japan) have become victim to regulatory capture and corruption. It’s why the FCC has repeatedly killed, blocked, or reversed reforms like net neutrality or “nutrition labels” on ISPs, and why South Korea gave in to “fair share” regulations that deterred further investment. Tech money is hugely in…

> The problem isn’t regulation, but regulatory capture ensuring companies get the regulations they desire and benefit from.

Aka regulation..... Nearly all regulation is for regulatory capture and if you think of something that isn't it probably just outlived who it was designed to capture for.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#142

Post by panick21_ »

kmeisthax wrote: post #63
stego-tech wrote: post #28

The solution - as always - is regulation. ISPs typically already have very generous business models with widespread monopolies on customers, overwhelming barriers to entry for new companies, and a lack of rate controls allowing then to price arbitrarily - all of which supports immensely profitable businesses without the need for additional extraction of capital from other parties. Regulators and consumers alike shoul…

Regulation isn't good enough. The government needs to make their own competing ISP. Hell, at least in the US, there's precedent for this: government builds and maintain all the roads; they run most transit and intercity rail operations; and they run physical mail delivery. At one point they even owned most of the railroads[0]. Communications and travel infrastructure are things government is moderately good at. For s…

> Hell, at least in the US, there's precedent for this: government builds and maintain all the roads; they run most transit and intercity rail operations; and they run physical mail delivery.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the US government is doing a terrible job at all of these.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#143

Post by hylaride »

1over137 wrote: post #90
hylaride wrote: post #15

Bell Canada also has had a long-standing policy of refusing to peer with internet exchanges. They'll only truly peer with other direct backbone providers and a handful of one-off peer with other large networks (google, cloud flare, etc), but their historical position as Canada's base backbone (not so much anymore, but it was definitely a thing pre-2005) has meant their policy is most people should pay them to peer. I…

it’s also insane because probably no Canadian wants their traffic going through the US unnecessarily, since all the 51st state takeover crap.

FWIW, this has being going on for decades. Bell literally doesn't care if there's a chance they can suck up some peering fees.

There have been periodic times where it became an acute problem, like early in the YouTube and Netflix years there was a lot of congestion in their upstream peers and they held out hoping those orgs would pay for the peering. They were also over provisioned in early DSL days where their upstreams became saturated and there were few alternative paths.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#144

Post by lifestyleguru »

amaccuish wrote: post #70
lifestyleguru wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany in specific building there is only one provider available in your telephone socket, and one in your cable socket in your apartment. Frequently there is no cable socket.

That's not relevant. Over a Deutsche Telekom phone line you can choose an ISP. The ISP sometimes has a layer two connection to you and therefore has their own infrastructure or they have a layer 3 connection in which case you suffer from the Telekom policies. Layer 2 = their infrastructure connects you to the internet Layer 3 = theyre literally just a reseller, DTAG is providing your internet connection, the ISP just…

That's too many words for simply saying "The fastest available DSL is 16Mbit/s and the customer service will be rude and useless".

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#146

Post by Dilettante_ »

cachius wrote: post #139
Starlevel004 wrote: post #135

> When Deutsche Telekom customers want to watch YouTube, that traffic flows directly from Google's network to Deutsche Telekom's network at a Frankfurt exchange point—maybe four or five router hops, minimal latency, no intermediaries. It's elegant. It's efficient. And it's exactly what Vodafone is abandoning. Tab closed

Why?

AI writing cadence I presume.

Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45850683

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#147

Post by mft_ »

amaccuish wrote: post #74
meibo wrote: post #50

The Telekom story mentioned in this article is 100% as bad as they make it out to be, most of the users we support with issues reaching our services are with Telekom Germany. Or in an authoritarian nation that blocks access to western services.

Can confirm, recently moved to o2, it was insufferable. For anyone wondering: netzbremse.de/ EN https://netzbremse.de/en/

Would you recommend o2?

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#148

Post by jimbokun »

thelaxiankey wrote: post #133
lwn wrote: post #48

I recently moved to a Dutch municipality that runs its own non-profit ISP. They installed a symmetric 1 Gbps fiber connection with a static IP at my house for 40 euros per month. The service is solid, there’s no upselling or throttling, and hosting things from home just works. I bring this up because when we talk about “open”, “fair” and “monopolies” the model of a local, non-profit ISP backed by the municipality cou…

i've wondered for a long time why this isn't a more common solution to these services that are almost inevitably monopolous. power, water, and internet kind of things.

In the US the governments have actively killed them as a favor to the large corporate Internet providers.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#149

Post by cachius »

lxgr wrote: post #130
fuzzy2 wrote: post #9

It's important to keep in mind that Deutsche Telekom is basically doing the same, and has been… forever? I disagree with this move, but it is not without precedent.

The big difference here is that you're almost never forced to use Deutsche Telekom for wired internet (there are many DSL resellers, and many of them actually provide routing themselves), but in some buildings, there is literally only Vodafone, with no choice of any alternative service provider on top.

Still Telekom has a big market share there.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#150

Post by subarctic »

1over137 wrote: post #90
hylaride wrote: post #15

Bell Canada also has had a long-standing policy of refusing to peer with internet exchanges. They'll only truly peer with other direct backbone providers and a handful of one-off peer with other large networks (google, cloud flare, etc), but their historical position as Canada's base backbone (not so much anymore, but it was definitely a thing pre-2005) has meant their policy is most people should pay them to peer. I…

it’s also insane because probably no Canadian wants their traffic going through the US unnecessarily, since all the 51st state takeover crap.

Maybe that's a way to give them bad PR and convince then to change policies? Unfortunately most people probably don't understand this well enough and they have a pretty well oiled PR machine with all their control over tv and radio stations, etc
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