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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#141

Post by mnmalst »

abetusk wrote: post #123
mnmalst wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel like I know better what other people experience talking about it here. :) Just now, what you wrote for example. > my minds eye visualization is close to photographic parity. What does this mean? Does this mean it's literally the exact same experience as if your eyes were open and you are looking at the picture? Or is it more like you imagine it and it's somewhere popping up in the back of your head? When…

Yes, I often don't realize I'm asleep and dreaming while I dream. It's a common experience for me to dream and think I'm experiencing reality while I'm asleep. Are you saying you have never had a visual dream? Sometimes when I'm close to sleep or when I'm lucid dreaming, I can visualize things with good fidelity. While I'm awake, I'm almost completely unable to.

Interesting!

I experience visual dreams the same way I described imagining the environment when I read. It's a completely different experience than seeing with my eyes open.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#142

Post by kaffekaka »

Looking at it from another direction, sometimes daydreaming can get so intense that what is in front of your eyes disappear. Internal imagery completely takes over. Does this happen to people who identify as aphantasiacs? Is everyone able to daydream?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#143

Post by more_corn »

ehutch79 wrote: post #32
bigyikes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve interrogated people about this but can never get a straight answer. —— “So you can really see things in your head when your eyes are closed?” Yeah! “And it’s as though you’re seeing the object in front of you?” Yeah, you don’t have that? “So it’s like you’re really seeing it? It’s the sensation of sight?“ Well… it’s kind of different. I’m not really seeing it. —— …and around we go. Personally, I can see images w…

Pretend you're talking about photos and cameras. You mean you can see the image? even though the camera isn't pointed at it now? Like it's really seeing it? Same idea. You're seeing it, but you know it's just a memory of the thing, not a live view. Like pulling up a video or jpg instead of a live feed.

I’ve got a hollow log from an apple tree in front of my parked car. I know the contractor put a bucket upside down on it, I could walk out my front door with my eyes closed and kick it (I know exactly where it is) But is the bucket at an angle to the left or right? I don’t have a picture I can reference. I know that I don’t know because I’d have to have noticed and remembered.

Does your photograph allow you to faithfully recall details you didn’t notice at the time or is it a simulation of an image?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#144

Post by conradev »

nosianu wrote: post #107
bigyikes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve interrogated people about this but can never get a straight answer. —— “So you can really see things in your head when your eyes are closed?” Yeah! “And it’s as though you’re seeing the object in front of you?” Yeah, you don’t have that? “So it’s like you’re really seeing it? It’s the sensation of sight?“ Well… it’s kind of different. I’m not really seeing it. —— …and around we go. Personally, I can see images w…

For me it is like a different "space" for mental vs real images. It is not the same neurons, I would guess. The real images are (and feel) outside of myself (obviously, you may say). The mental image feels very close and kind of "inside my mental space", in a dark space. It is far from how I see with my eyes on all levels, very basic. It is more conceptual, that concept given some vague form, not "pixels" (not that t…

It's the same for me, in terms of it being dark and fuzzy unless concentrated on.

but I really do notice this sort of ability when it comes to memory. When I am looking for something, I can often visualize a scene of where I saw it last. This is not always helpful for actually finding the object, but it can be! When trying to recall a meeting, I can recall materials I saw (bits of text on slides, images, etc).

I'm fairly good at remembering faces, and if they're next to a name when I see them, I can even associate the name! The flip side, of course, is that if I don't see the name, I won't remember it.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#145

Post by pfgallagher »

I have aphantasia. Like many others, I am able to see images when I dream and very rarely in a hypnagogic state.

My partner is on the opposite side of the spectrum; she can conjure mental images with ease. Our differences in that respect have led to a lot of interesting conversations.

I think aphantasia is quite misunderstood by people able to visualize. I can remember how things look, have no issues identifying faces, have a strong spatial understanding of places I've been, etc. It's hard to describe precisely; we just remember things differently.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#146

Post by tekacs »

phainopepla2 wrote: post #130
tekacs wrote: post #31

For those who find themselves wondering whether they 'have' aphantasia or not, I would really recommend looking at the aphantasia apples: https://lianamscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/f4c55-1_b... As in: if you look at this image, can you place yourself on a scale of 1 - 5 of as to the fidelity with which you can picture an apple if you try to imagine it? I'm a 5 for example, and in asking many people this quest…

I have sometimes wondered whether there is a personality or cognitive trait that makes one unable to respond to tests measuring personality or cognitive traits. Every personality test I have ever taken, on many of the questions I've felt that I could answer almost anything and still be truthful. When I see this apple scale, I simultaneously feel that both 1 and 5 apply to how I visualize an apple. It's hard for me to…

Something that might help - in this specific instance - is trying to contrast with others.

That is: if you show this photo to people that you know and you compare and contrast _how detailedly_ you can imagine the apples, that can help.

For example: are you imagining a _specific_ apple? What high-level color is it? How about more specifically? How does the color change across the surface? If so, does it have any distinguishing features? Leaves on the stem or no? What does the bottom look like? Can you turn it around and describe that?

Folks who are high up on the spectrum (like 1) can often answer these questions specifically, whereas as you go down the spectrum these tasks seem progressively more impossible.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#147

Post by Lerc »

andy99 wrote: post #7

I’ve read tons of these and still have no idea if I have aphantasia or not. I can’t understand whether people just have different ways of describing what’s in their minds eye or if there’s really a fundamental difference.

I have aphantasia in the sense that I have no sense of there being an image, but several years ago, I posted a comment hypothesising that the interpretation of the experience as an image might be the distinguishing factor.

The response to that suggestion was unexpectedly strong, People really didn't like the notion of doubt of their experience. Some said I was accusing them of lying.

It was quite odd, I thought it was an uncontroversial notion that what we feel we are experiencing can differ from reality.

I think, perhaps, it was received as me saying "This is the truth, you're the one who is wrong."

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#148

Post by noir_lord »

kaffekaka wrote: post #131
noir_lord wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I can see images when I dream. If I dream I don't ever remember them - I assume I must, I think everyone (barring medical issues) has REM sleep. I envy people that, dreams sound amazing.

In my experience remembering dreams is a matter of practice and stress levels. When life is calmer I remember alot more.

Not for me, never remembered them at any point, I asked my mum once if she remembered me dreaming when I was a kid and she couldn't remember it either, no dreams/no nightmares.

I have an active imagination and I read a lot of fiction and I don't think I have aphantasia, I just go to sleep, wake up and never remember a thing in between.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#149

Post by zaphoyd »

tekacs wrote: post #31

For those who find themselves wondering whether they 'have' aphantasia or not, I would really recommend looking at the aphantasia apples: https://lianamscott.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/f4c55-1_b... As in: if you look at this image, can you place yourself on a scale of 1 - 5 of as to the fidelity with which you can picture an apple if you try to imagine it? I'm a 5 for example, and in asking many people this quest…

I've had mixed results with this method, especially for folks in category 5 because they grew up in a world where people casually talked about [actual] visualization and they've associated [not actually visualization] with the word (thinking it is a metaphor for something else). As someone who cannot visualize at all when faced with this question I feel like my answer wants to be.. "null" / "the premise of this question doesn't make sense" and not "5"

A variant that I've found helpful for teasing out this case: 1. Ask the test subject to visualize an Apple 2. Ask them for a few very specific details about the apple they are currently visualizing (what color is it? does it have a leaf or a bite out of it?, etc)

In many cases aphantastics will not object to the activity in step 1, but they won't be doing the same thing as the folks who are actually visualizing. They'll just do what they do when people talk about "visualizing".

When you get to step 2 someone who is actually visualizing can immediately answer the questions and don't think they are strange, they are just reporting what they are visualizing in front of them.

An aphantastic in step 2 is often confused. They aren't actually visualizing any specific apple so there isn't a reference to answer the questions. You'll get a response like.. well what kind of Apple is it? How should I know if it has a bite out of it? You first have to either provide more context or reword the question to something like: What is a color an Apple could be? or What color is your favorite Apple?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#150

Post by anthk »

pfgallagher wrote: post #145

I have aphantasia. Like many others, I am able to see images when I dream and very rarely in a hypnagogic state. My partner is on the opposite side of the spectrum; she can conjure mental images with ease. Our differences in that respect have led to a lot of interesting conversations. I think aphantasia is quite misunderstood by people able to visualize. I can remember how things look, have no issues identifying face…

Instead of the whole image, you just visualize the main aspects as vectors?
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