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AI is making us work more

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Re: AI is making us work more

#141

Post by anonymars »

donatj wrote: post #128
BeetleB wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first engineering job was non-SW, and had a lot of manual work. I automated a lot of it. Yes, it led to more work. What would take half a day could now be done in an hour. So we now had to produce 4x more. I spent 4 years there automating left and right. Everyone silently hated me. One of the problems with my automation was that it allowed for more and more Q/A. And the more you check for quality issues, the more…

I have a friend who automated his entire days work down to the click of a single button. He did not tell management because they were pretty scummy. He got written up for not "looking busy" despite his output being higher than his coworkers. Business is stupid. They value busy-ness over productivity.

I guess it is right there in the name, isn't it?

Re: AI is making us work more

#142

Post by beachy »

BeetleB wrote: post #120
everdrive wrote: post #37

I was never excited for automation. Automation doesn't mean we do less. It means that we do as much work, and now also the work has a higher complexity ceiling; you need to understand the systems that are being automated, and need to maintain the automation. More things are possible, but everything is more complex, and of course, you still need to work 40 hours a week. Products don't get better either, but that's mor…

My first engineering job was non-SW, and had a lot of manual work. I automated a lot of it. Yes, it led to more work. What would take half a day could now be done in an hour. So we now had to produce 4x more. I spent 4 years there automating left and right. Everyone silently hated me. One of the problems with my automation was that it allowed for more and more Q/A. And the more you check for quality issues, the more…

I read a great article a while ago (can't remember where) when they tasked some embedded guys with building a somewhat complex front end app.

When it was done, there were no bugs. Not a single issue. They asked the embedded guys how they had accomplished it. They said "we didn't know bugs were allowed".

Many people have never authored or even been involved with a high quality piece of software, so they just don't know what it looks like, or why you'd want it.

You'd think that someone in the exec team would have some personal pride and ownership in the code and would want to flush out bugs and improve quality. But nah.

Re: AI is making us work more

#143

Post by BeetleB »

donatj wrote: post #128
BeetleB wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first engineering job was non-SW, and had a lot of manual work. I automated a lot of it. Yes, it led to more work. What would take half a day could now be done in an hour. So we now had to produce 4x more. I spent 4 years there automating left and right. Everyone silently hated me. One of the problems with my automation was that it allowed for more and more Q/A. And the more you check for quality issues, the more…

I have a friend who automated his entire days work down to the click of a single button. He did not tell management because they were pretty scummy. He got written up for not "looking busy" despite his output being higher than his coworkers. Business is stupid. They value busy-ness over productivity.

> He got written up for not "looking busy" despite his output being higher than his coworkers.

Also my experience with that first job. I would get the work done quicker than others, and leave around 5pm (most stayed beyond 6pm).

The message was clear: "There's always work to do. If you're getting work done early, you need to do more!"

I got worse ratings than people who achieved less. It also explains why coworkers refused to learn how to automate things.

Again: I automate to make my life easier. If it isn't working, I shouldn't do it.

Re: AI is making us work more

#144

Post by kogasa240p »

everdrive wrote: post #37

I was never excited for automation. Automation doesn't mean we do less. It means that we do as much work, and now also the work has a higher complexity ceiling; you need to understand the systems that are being automated, and need to maintain the automation. More things are possible, but everything is more complex, and of course, you still need to work 40 hours a week. Products don't get better either, but that's mor…

IMO it's an economic problem (GDP must always rise because reasons) and the hedonic treadmill at play. I would even argue against the complexity point and rather point to overengineering being the root cause; an example would be using a robot arm to automate a cup of coffee instead of using existing vending machines for that purpose.

> potentially your own skills stagnate as you rely on LLMs more and more.

There were some papers from microsoft that highlighted this point https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

Re: AI is making us work more

#145

Post by Wohlf »

Legend2440 wrote: post #106
burnte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My follow up would be, "if AI is doing so many 'menial' jobs, even if AI makes everything cheap, how will unemployed people afford anything?"

We've done this before, and it turned out great. In the industrial revolution, tractors and machine looms and steam engines did all the old 'menial' jobs. We just invented new jobs that pay better with all the extra wealth created by automation. The middle class grew and quality of life skyrocketed. It was arguably the best thing to ever happen to the world.

This is categorically not what happened during the industrial revolution, you're thinking of the second industrial revolution and even then it's a less rosy picture. The first industrial revolution did not lead to rapid growth and in fact led to brutal methods to increase cheap resource extraction like children working in coal mines, expanded slavery in the new world, and brutal colonialism.

Re: AI is making us work more

#146

Post by BirAdam »

If the history of the world since the Industrial Revolution can teach anything, it is that while the machines took much of the work, they did not shorten the workday. Instead, we all just work more. Since the Information Revolution, some people get off work, go home, and continue to work. It never stops. The companies of the world will never tolerate giving people more time off. Why do that when people could just get more done in fewer total days?

Personally, in the times I've had the most time off, I find that I am more productive, but that doesn't matter to any employer.

Re: AI is making us work more

#147

Post by sothatsit »

pdntspa wrote: post #97
Xevion wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowkey it kind of sounds like capitalism is the problem here, not automation.

This needs to be boosted more to this community; WE are creating the tools of our own oppression. The folks at the top know how susceptible we are to being nerd-sniped and how readily we will build these things for them.

I want to create automation and greater efficiencies because I believe it is good for the world to have better goods and services, cheaper.

The bigger problem I see is not automation, it is the exploitation of addictive behaviours to “capture attention”.

Re: AI is making us work more

#148

Post by AlexandrB »

fragmede wrote: post #88
almosthere wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but to continue the analogy, the washer was JUST invented and your clothes will come out ruined for a while.

Oh man, remember how much bigger a deal it was that you had to separate your clothes into the exact right categories and run the machine with different kinds of loads? Modern detergent, it's basically all machine wash cold, with far fewer exceptions compared to 30 years ago.

I don't think it's just the detergent. Modern clothes are made of shitty, synthetic fabrics. This is also why most people don't have to iron anything anymore. The tradeoff is microplastics[1], comfort/breathability, and durability.

Classic example is jeans. Modern jeans are ridiculously stretchy compared to "real" cotton denim because they contain tons synthetic fibers. However I run through jeans at an alarming pace - even compared to when I was a kid. They wear quickly, tear easily, and generally don't last.

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/laundry-is-a-top-source...

Re: AI is making us work more

#149

Post by cool_man_bob »

sothatsit wrote: post #147
pdntspa wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This needs to be boosted more to this community; WE are creating the tools of our own oppression. The folks at the top know how susceptible we are to being nerd-sniped and how readily we will build these things for them.

I want to create automation and greater efficiencies because I believe it is good for the world to have better goods and services, cheaper. The bigger problem I see is not automation, it is the exploitation of addictive behaviours to “capture attention”.

I don’t give a fuck how cheap you make bread and circuses. The only goods and services I give a fuck about anymore are the ones that won’t be made cheaper with automation.

Re: AI is making us work more

#150

Post by gretch »

hirvi74 wrote: post #133
DrewADesign wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah contracted flat rate and hourly billing are just different. If you’re billing someone for time and not deliverables, it’s not ethical to bill someone for more time than you spend on it because you were more efficient. The ‘right’ way to do it is be able to deliver more than everyone else so you get a lot more work, undercut your competition, and take a bigger market share. If you’re not willing to do that, use a…

> The ‘right’ way to do it is be able to deliver more than everyone else so you get a lot more work, undercut your competition, and take a bigger market share. You are absolutely correct from a business perspective. However, I just cannot shake the feeling that I am so 'over' this society that we have created. I'm near my breaking point, I swear. Each passing day, I just think living off the grid sounds better and be…

I'm not sure where you live, but you can probably still do this.

Although the internet has globalized a lot of services, there's still local, labor intensive jobs that can never be scaled up like this.

To name a few:

- Garbage man - bus driver - child care provider - teacher

Tailors still exist. I went to one last week to get an inch off my pant legs.

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