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The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

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Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#141
post #98
post #3

If someone invoices me, and I don’t pay the full amount in a timely manner, what do you think will happen? Late fees, reports to credit bureaus, collections agencies hounding me, maybe even lawsuits? If insurance companies underpay, doctors should treat that no differently. Don’t appeal through the insurance company itself. Imagine I go to a store and pay less than the full amount at the register, and then the grocer…

It's truly fucked up. Most insurances won't publish their fee schedules. So doctors don't know what they will pay. So what they do is bill insanely high knowing the insurance will come back with "Nah, we only cover $X". They'll collect $X, then write off the remainder. Because the fear is not getting the maximum money possible. If the doctor would bill $100 and the insurance pays up to $200, then the doctor "lost" $1…

Ah, but this has also lead to many private practices getting bought by hospital groups, at which point they have superior pricing power. The doctor makes more money, and the insurance company pays more, as it's harder to strongarm a company that owns 8 hospitals than a 3 doctor practice. Either way, the price goes up.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#142

What, if any, alternative framework other than single payer could be put into place instead of our current hellscape? Have health sharing plans been successful? Those require a religious affiliation IIRC. I exclude single payer solely because it’s impossible with our current leadership. I’m surprised there isn’t a Costco like medical group that’s nationwide, has a membership, and works solely to provide care efficien…

The real problem is the billing model we have, where every individual act a clinician performs is separately billable... and separately haggle-able.

One model that has shown promise is "bundled payments." For example, imagine that a certain insurance company switches to a bundled model for childbirth. They say, "we will pay a hospital $X to cover everything related to this patient's childbirth. Maybe it will be a very simple birth and the hospital will make a lot of money on it. Maybe it will be more complex/expensive, and the hospital will make less money. In some rare cases, the hospital will actually lose money."

Why is this a better model? Well, 2 reasons:

1. the hospital has an incentive to provide care efficiently, rather than trying to churn out as many procedures as possible so they can bill more

2. there's just fewer numbers for providers and payers to haggle over

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#144
> More than half of societal work is pointless, both large parts of some jobs and five types of entirely pointless jobs:

> Flunkies, ...

> Goons, who act to harm or deceive others on behalf of their employer, or to prevent other goons from doing so, e.g., lobbyists, corporate lawyers, telemarketers, public relations specialists; > Duct tapers, ...

> Box tickers, ...

> Taskmasters ...

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the magic words in US Health Care: "What is the cash price?" It's usually less than you think and often worth avoiding the insurance company hassle. Then you can just get reimbursed with your FSA or HSA anyway.

Pharmtech: "With your current insurance we can't sell you this medicine at any price. We're under an agreement." Me: "Okay, what if we don't go through insurance?" Pharmtech: "$45 for the prescription." Me: "That's a bit higher than last time." Pharmtech: performs some sort of incantation "Okay, $12." Me: "How did we go from not at any price to $12?" for those of you keeping score at home, the medicine was generic co…

There's an XKCD where the person who did the file download dialog for Windows visits some friends, https://xkcd.com/612/.

"I'm just outside town, so I should be there in fifteen minutes...actually, it's looking more like six days...No, wait, thirty seconds"

Sounds like that guy got a job setting prices for prescription medicine.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#146

It's a system that supports two set of clients, doctors and patients, and fails them both. Yet, Congress has considered it sacred and infallible for a hundred years. Democrat's most earnest attempt ended up strengthening and expanding that system, and Republicans for their part have fought tooth and nail to stack the system even further against the people it's supposed to serve.

This would all be well and good if the doctors weren't also profiteering. When you visit one, you still don't know if their recommendations are good for me or for them. I have seen allergists which are no less slimy than used car salesmen. See also studies on dentists and their varied recommendations for the same patient.

The US insurance system doesn't seem to be giving us low prices, but let's not pretend it's all their fault. It's just a complex market where it's hard to compare providers, and therefore is prone to a lot of inefficiency.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#147
It's pretty obvious to everyone that doctors have been abusing these levels. See doc for 20 minutes for a low complexity item but get charged for a 30 minute medium complexity. The insurance companies aren't blind. They've got the stats in hand for each doctor. I mean some of the ranking data is already built into the portal tools they give consumers for finding a doc.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#148

What, if any, alternative framework other than single payer could be put into place instead of our current hellscape? Have health sharing plans been successful? Those require a religious affiliation IIRC. I exclude single payer solely because it’s impossible with our current leadership. I’m surprised there isn’t a Costco like medical group that’s nationwide, has a membership, and works solely to provide care efficien…

Where I live, we have three major hospital chains. Imagine one of them is Kaiser Permanente. My primary care is through Kaiser. When I needed to see a podiatrist to get a toenail removed, they were through Kaiser. When I went to an ER a few years ago for some abdominal pain, it was a Kaiser ER.

It is beyond me why my employer is paying an insurance company anything at this point. Kaiser should be selling me an annual plan where everything at Kaiser is covered, maybe up to a point, and then they have insurance-like network relationships with e.g. other ERs in the area, if you need them, plus out-of-area addons for when I'm traveling.

This is, fundamentally, in Kaiser's interest to sell (again, I don't live near Kaiser Permanente, I'm just using them as an example; every population center has networks of healthcare providers like this). They hate dealing with insurance as much as their patients do. But only recently have these healthcare mega-conglomerates achieved so much monopolistic integration that they could actually do this and people would be interested.

Also, interestingly: My dentist does not accept insurance; direct pay. My eye doctor also does not accept insurance. This is also a new thing; it wasn't long ago that I recall them actually asking for it, but nowadays they just bill directly. It hasn't gotten more expensive (beyond the fact that my employer is paying for useless dental and vision insurance, but at least those are only like $1-$4/paycheck).

Idk, my point is, I think things are changing and will continue to change faster than you might think. I'd love to see government-ran single-payer, but even admitting that is very unlikely to happen on the near term, there's just so much excess, waste, and bureaucracy in the medical system that some kind of short-circuiting direct-to-consumer play, by someone, will happen. Once a major healthcare provider chain can prove that this D2C model works (and it would work), the dominoes will fall.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies hold tremendous leverage over care providers, up to and including the power to effectively put them out of business on a whim. Care providers don't like picking fights with insurance companies.

Care providers make massively, massively more money than insurance providers.

Care providers also likely spend much more time and labor on making that money than the insurance providers spend making their end, though I only have anecdotal evidence of this through my involvement in healthcare providers’ practices as an MSP.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care providers make massively, massively more money than insurance providers.

Care providers also likely spend much more time and labor on making that money than the insurance providers spend making their end, though I only have anecdotal evidence of this through my involvement in healthcare providers’ practices as an MSP.

It's $2.5Tn vs $0.3Tn. It's more than 8x more.
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