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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#141

Post by DeepSeaTortoise »

marviio wrote: post #52
DeepSeaTortoise wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the malware industry benefit from digital message privacy? If you're the victim, just hand over the relevant chats yourself. Otherwise, just follow the money. And if the attackers are sitting in a country whose banks you can't get to cooperate, intercepting chat messages from within that country won't do you any good either. Also, if someone has malicious intent and is part of a criminal network, the people…

”Follow the money”. Yes, let’s decide that no bank is to have anything to do with crypto from next year. And not do business with other banks that accepts crypto. That would help stop fraud much more effective than Chat Control.

For the vast majority of crypto currencies tracing the transactions is trivial. And even currencies like XMR are hardly as anonymous as people think.

The challenging regulations around technically anonymous crypto currencies require you to actively make trackable arrangements with your financial service providers. VERY few people will ever do this, and therefore if anything suspicious were to occur, all you've achieved is putting yourself on the suspect list preemptively.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#142

Post by layer8 »

zaphar wrote: post #115
layer8 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In simple terms, because the far right is about authoritarianism and control, not about civil liberties.

Interesting. So they have a history of attempting to legislate authoritarian rules that restrict civil liberties for citizens?

Yes, for example:

https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2021/kw02-de-p...

https://www.bundestag.de/webarchiv/textarchiv/2018/kw08-de-v...

https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/304/1930412.pdf

https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/111/1911127.pdf

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#143

Post by constantcrying »

hackandthink wrote: post #110
layer8 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.

There is a lot of censorship in Germany. People do not care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/russia-today-verbot...

This might sound insane to every American, but German law especially protects politicians from insults, slander and libel. (See https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__188.html for the actual law)

Yes, you read that right. German law is especially protective of politicians, which is why politicians are very active suing random supporters of their opponents, because that is an effective way to police speech, open specifically to politicians.

I do think a lot of people care, but censorship in Germany does a lot to protect the people who could change the law. That law obviously needs to be abolished, politicians are uniquely unworthy of protection when it comes to speech.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#144

Post by nofriend »

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #128
NobodyNada wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I strongly oppose any kind of "panopticon" like ChatControl. What I would like to see, is, say, Signal [...] provide cleartext contents of communications to/from a cleary identified party Those statements simply aren't compatible. Right now, Signal is designed by cryptography experts to provide the best privacy we know how to build: messages are only readable by you or the intended recipient. "Lawful intercept" nec…

> You're proposing that we secure our private conversations with TSA luggage locks No -- that's an incredibly reductive summary, and the attitude you display here is, if left unchecked, exactly what will allow something equally ridiculous like ChatControl to pass eventually. There has been plenty of previous debate when innovations like postal mail, telegraph traffic and phone calls were introduced. This debate has r…

We can draw analogy between any two things. An encrypted chat is not a letter in the mail or a call on the telephone. It is an entirely new thing. Backdooring such chats is not "bringing technology in line with existing laws" it is, very clearly, passing new laws, and creating new invasions of privacy. It must be justified anew. The justification for wiretapping was not that there was no way to fight crime without it. Otherwise, when the criminals became wise to it, and began to hold their conversations offline, there would have been a new law, requiring that all rooms be fitted with microphones that the police could tap into as necessary. No such law was passed. Instead, the justification for wiretapping was simply that, once police had identified some transmission as relating to the committing of a crime, they could obtain a warrant, and then tap into the communication. The physical capacity without any effort by uninvolved individuals was the entire justification. That capacity does not exist with encrypted chats. The analogy is therefore much closer to the "mandated microphones" described above. Everyone is being required to take action to reduce their own privacy, regardless of whether they are subject to a warrant.

What is most striking about our "mandated microphone" analogy is the utter futility of it. Criminals have no issue breaking the law, and hence have no issue outfitting a room with no microphones in which to carry out their dealings. The same is true of any law targeting encrypted chats.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#145

Post by ho_schi »

The CDU/CSU is doing something good. That didn't happened for a long time? I appreciate it.

Ausgerechnet Spahn. Manchmal glaubt man seinen Augen und Ohren nicht. Wir müssen Wachsam bleiben. Mit dem Argument das es böse Menschen gibt, wurde schon viel böses getan. Massenüberwachung zerstört jede Gesellschaft. Deutschland hat mehrfach darunter gelitten. Und die Versuche Massenüberwachung einzuführen wiederholen sich.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#146

Post by uniqueuid »

constantcrying wrote: post #143
hackandthink wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of censorship in Germany. People do not care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/russia-today-verbot...

This might sound insane to every American, but German law especially protects politicians from insults, slander and libel. (See https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__188.html for the actual law) Yes, you read that right. German law is especially protective of politicians, which is why politicians are very active suing random supporters of their opponents, because that is an effective way to police speech, open sp…

If you look at the concrete laws, they are less spectacular.

For example, the concept of privacy protecting against media coverage is actually weaker for politicians (when in official duty) than for ordinary citizens (Allgemeines Persönlichkeitsrecht).

And libel only applies to statements of facts. I.e. you can't (easily) be prosecuted for opinions, just for making harmful false claims.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#147

Post by [deleted] »

layer8 wrote: post #112
zaphar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the far right in Germany. Why should we be assured that they will reverse course as soon as they can afford it?

In simple terms, because the far right is about authoritarianism and control, not about civil liberties.

[deleted]

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#148

Post by codethief »

Netzpolitik.org says it's not decided yet: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/eu-ueberwachungsplaene-unionsfr...

Jens Spahn, the speaker in the video OP shared, is not a member of the government but a leading member of the parliament and of one of the ruling parties. A tiny but important difference.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#149

Post by sho_hn »

lupusreal wrote: post #130
mx7zysuj4xew wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What war, against who? I don't know what kind of narrative you are tying to push here but know that any attempt would immediately meet strong opposition (I've seen the graves of Verdun and I for one would do anything to actively undermine and sabotage any kind of active war effort)

[flagged]

Can we do better than have Europe fall apart in a Hacker News comment thread? :)

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#150

Post by glenstein »

zaphar wrote: post #116
peterlk wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, similar to the US, they have authoritarian tendencies - strong nationalism and anti-immigration. How are you going to round up the bad people if you don't have surveillance everywhere?

I am unclear on how strong nationalism is an authoritarian signal. Can you go into more detail there?

Well the Axis powers from World War II are the most obvious demonstrations of nationalism begetting authoritarianism. Germany, Italy, and Japan were nationalist in the extreme. And Italy from that time is such a clear example that it's basically the canonical example used to teach how fascism emerges.

Contemporary examples include the Philippines, Hungary, Poland's Law and Justice Party, and arguably Russia, Turkey and India. Modi is a Hindu nationalist. The United States unfortunately is shaping up to count as an example as well.

Extreme forms of nationalism tend to have a narrative of grievance, a desire to restore a once a great national identity, and a tendency to divide the world into loyal citizens, and enemies without and within, against whom authoritarians powers must be mobilized.

So there's a conceptual basis, in terms of setting the stage for rationalizing authoritarianism, as well as abundant historical examples demonstrating the marriage of nationalism and authoritarianism in action. There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but I would say there's an extremely strong and familiar historical canon to those who study the topic.

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